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Hi Paul,
My enigma machine is down so the thrust of your post is not clear. I =
have never heard of John Murtagh so you must know my nephew who has =
never heard of him either.
=20
Corn to ethanol was promoted as a carbon neutral fuel and, if =
produced using manure, elbow grease and ox or horse power then perhaps =
it gets close to that. But when it is produced using the intensive =
inputs of industrial agriculture then the overall system generates more =
carbon emission than use of petrochemicals without ethanol. And the =
subsidized ethanol fuel market resulted in less food corn production, =
higher food prices and hardship for those with a traditional diet high =
in corn.
And I object to the insinuation that I selectively support only =
ideas generated by government employees because that is 100% off base. I =
judge ideas on merit not origin.
I do however strongly support the value of Government funded science =
provided it is entirely free of pressure, especially political pressure. =
That resource in needed to keep industry somewhat honest and to act as =
an advisory source for government. A large amount in industrial research =
in the US is (or has been) actually funded by government to mutual =
advantage.
Yt, Dave Webster, Kentville.=20
----- Original Message -----=20
From: rita.paul@ns.sympatico.ca=20
To: naturens@chebucto.ns.ca=20
Sent: Sunday, December 21, 2014 12:09 PM
Subject: Re: Scope of NatureNS: Re: Long again: Re: Long: Re: =
[NatureNS] light
Interesting Dave=20
You say =EF=BB=BF corn to alcohol initiative was a disaster!=20
and then go on to say "But all to often some anticipated negative =
effect is enough to derail a undertaking that on balance would be very =
beneficial."=20
Seems to me that is what you want to do with the ethanol initiative.=20
Not many folks will recognize John Murtagh - a maritimer by choice for =
a few years.=20
One of the Maritimes leading scientists - I was lucky enough to work =
for=20
him before his breakthrough and that's not so long ago and now you =
want=20
to throw it out? I understand - he didn't work for the government!=20
Enjoy early winter=20
Paul=20
On December 21, 2014 at 10:12 AM David & Alison Webster =
<dwebster@glinx.com> wrote:=20
Hi Fred, Dec 21, 2014=20
Good intentions have a way of goings astray; no doubt about =
that.=20
=20
Mandated targets for biodiesel e.g. led to rapid expansion of =
the tropical Palm Oil industry with ghastly human and environmental =
consequences. The corn to alcohol initiative in the US is another =
disaster.=20
=20
Tinkering with any complex system generates a need for rapid =
feedback and control so unforseen adverse consequences can be nipped in =
the bud. Otherwise an initiative will fly like one of Goddard's early =
rockets; squirm around until propulsion and gravity are acting in the =
same direction. Or in other words follow the course of least resistance. =
=20
Ideally one would apply resistance so action combines maximum =
positive effects with minimum negative. But all to often some =
anticipated negative effect is enough to derail a undertaking that on =
balance would be very beneficial.=20
=20
Yt, Dave Webster, Kentville=20
=20
=20
.=20
----- Original Message -----=20
From: Fred Schueler=20
To: naturens@chebucto.ns.ca=20
Sent: Saturday, December 20, 2014 9:00 PM=20
Subject: Re: Scope of NatureNS: Re: Long again: Re: Long: Re: =
[NatureNS] light=20
=20
On 12/20/2014 6:33 PM, David & Alison Webster wrote:=20
=20
Opposition to wind generation has often come strangely =
enough from Naturalists; organizations or individuals. This was helped I =
expect by a famous site in California that was set in a raptor migration =
channel in a mountain pass by, what a concidence, a Petrochemical =
Company.=20
* experience in Ontario has been that these "green" energy =
projects are often put in by ecologically insensitive firms, prompting =
the new provincial motto of Ontario "green is black." =
http://www.saveostranderpoint.org/#sthash.LufTSMYD.dpbs is a tale of a =
wind farm in an "important bird area" where the Ministry of the =
Environment joined the "proponent's" appeal of a decision that the =
project posed an unacceptable risk to a SAR, and the whole basis of the =
Ontario Rivers Alliance http://www.ontarioriversalliance.ca/ was "green =
is black" mesoscale hydro projects that were to be blotted all across =
the norther part of the province - =
http://karstaddailypaintings.blogspot.ca/2012/10/precious-wild-rivers-cal=
endar-for-2013.html - see my comments. Another instance of this =
single-purpose insensitivity is the solar farms that are put in with no =
concern for Species at Risk that might be encouraged to live among the =
panels.=20
Just as is the case with massive certified-organic agriculture, if =
we're going to have green infrastructure it must be green all the way =
down - which will require substantial re-education of the =
industrial/financial sorts - it's not enough that politicians respond to =
the need to make alternative sources of energy useable - these =
installations must be installed with ecological sensitivity to the local =
sites, and in consultation with the local Human population.=20
fred.=20
--=20
------------------------------------------------------------
Frederick W. Schueler & Aleta Karstad
Daily Paintings - http://karstaddailypaintings.blogspot.com/
Vulnerable Watersheds - http://vulnerablewaters.blogspot.ca/
Mudpuppy Night in Oxford Mills - http://pinicola.ca/mudpup1.htm
RR#2 Bishops Mills, Ontario, Canada K0G 1T0
on the Smiths Falls Limestone Plain 44* 52'N 75* 42'W
(613)258-3107 <bckcdb at istar.ca> http://pinicola.ca/
------------------------------------------------------------
No virus found in this message.
Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
Version: 2015.0.5577 / Virus Database: 4253/8775 - Release Date: =
12/20/14
=20
No virus found in this message.
Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
Version: 2015.0.5577 / Virus Database: 4253/8778 - Release Date: =
12/21/14
------=_NextPart_000_0728_01D01D23.381F9880
Content-Type: text/html;
charset="UTF-8"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
=EF=BB=BF<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.0 Transitional//EN">
<HTML xmlns=3D"http://www.w3.org/1999/xhtml"><HEAD>
<META content=3D"text/html; charset=3DUTF-8" http-equiv=3DContent-Type>
<META name=3DGENERATOR content=3D"MSHTML 8.00.6001.23588">
<STYLE></STYLE>
</HEAD>
<BODY bgColor=3D#ffffff>
<DIV>Hi Paul,</DIV>
<DIV> My enigma machine is down so the thrust of your =
post is=20
not clear. I have never heard of John Murtagh so you must know my nephew =
who has=20
never heard of him either.</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV> Corn to ethanol was promoted as a carbon neutral =
fuel=20
and, if produced using manure, elbow grease and ox or horse power then =
perhaps=20
it gets close to that. But when it is produced using the intensive =
inputs of=20
industrial agriculture then the overall system generates more carbon=20
emission than use of petrochemicals without ethanol. And the =
subsidized=20
ethanol fuel market resulted in less food corn production, higher food =
prices=20
and hardship for those with a traditional diet high in corn.</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV> And I object to the insinuation that I =
selectively=20
support only ideas generated by government employees because that is =
100% off=20
base. I judge ideas on merit not origin.</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV> I do however strongly support the value of =
Government=20
funded science provided it is entirely free of pressure, especially =
political=20
pressure. That resource in needed to keep industry somewhat honest and =
to act as=20
an advisory source for government. A large amount in industrial =
research in=20
the US is (or has been) actually funded by government to =
mutual=20
advantage.</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>Yt, Dave Webster, Kentville. </DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE=20
style=3D"BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; =
PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px"=20
dir=3Dltr>
<DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial">----- Original Message ----- </DIV>
<DIV=20
style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial; BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; font-color: =
black"><B>From:</B>=20
<A title=3Drita.paul@ns.sympatico.ca=20
=
href=3D"mailto:rita.paul@ns.sympatico.ca">rita.paul@ns.sympatico.ca</A> =
</DIV>
<DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>To:</B> <A =
title=3Dnaturens@chebucto.ns.ca=20
href=3D"mailto:naturens@chebucto.ns.ca">naturens@chebucto.ns.ca</A> =
</DIV>
<DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Sent:</B> Sunday, December 21, 2014 =
12:09=20
PM</DIV>
<DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Subject:</B> Re: Scope of NatureNS: =
Re: Long=20
again: Re: Long: Re: [NatureNS] light</DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV>
<DIV>Interesting Dave </DIV>
<DIV>You say =EF=BB=BF corn to alcohol initiative was a disaster! =
</DIV>
<DIV>and then go on to say "But all to often some anticipated negative =
effect=20
is enough to derail a undertaking that on balance would be very =
beneficial."=20
</DIV>
<DIV>Seems to me that is what you want to do with the ethanol =
initiative.=20
</DIV>
<DIV>Not many folks will recognize John Murtagh - a maritimer by =
choice for a=20
few years. </DIV>
<DIV>One of the Maritimes leading scientists - I was lucky enough to =
work for=20
</DIV>
<DIV>him before his breakthrough and that's not so long ago and now =
you want=20
</DIV>
<DIV>to throw it out? I understand - he didn't work for the =
government! </DIV>
<DIV>Enjoy early winter </DIV>
<DIV>Paul </DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE=20
style=3D"POSITION: relative; BORDER-LEFT: blue 1px solid; =
PADDING-LEFT: 10px; MARGIN-LEFT: 0px"=20
type=3D"cite">On December 21, 2014 at 10:12 AM David & Alison =
Webster=20
<dwebster@glinx.com> wrote: <BR><BR>
<DIV>Hi Fred, =
=20
=
=20
Dec 21, 2014 </DIV>
<DIV> Good intentions have a way of goings astray; =
no=20
doubt about that. </DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV> Mandated targets for biodiesel e.g. led =
to=20
rapid expansion of the tropical Palm Oil industry with ghastly human =
and=20
environmental consequences. The corn to alcohol initiative in the US =
is=20
another disaster. </DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV> Tinkering with any complex system generates =
a need=20
for rapid feedback and control so unforseen adverse consequences can =
be=20
nipped in the bud. Otherwise an initiative will fly like one of =
Goddard's=20
early rockets; squirm around until propulsion and gravity are acting =
in the=20
same direction. Or in other words follow the course of =
least=20
resistance. </DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV> Ideally one would apply resistance so action =
combines maximum positive effects with minimum negative. But all to =
often=20
some anticipated negative effect is enough to derail a undertaking =
that on=20
balance would be very beneficial. </DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV> Yt, Dave Webster, Kentville </DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV> . </DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE=20
style=3D"BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; =
PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
<DIV=20
style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial; font-size-adjust: none; font-stretch: =
normal">-----=20
Original Message ----- </DIV>
<DIV=20
style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial; BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; font-size-adjust: =
none; font-stretch: normal; font-color: black"><STRONG>From:</STRONG>=20
Fred Schueler </DIV>
<DIV=20
style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial; font-size-adjust: none; font-stretch: =
normal"><STRONG>To:</STRONG>=20
<A =
href=3D"mailto:naturens@chebucto.ns.ca">naturens@chebucto.ns.ca</A>=20
</DIV>
<DIV=20
style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial; font-size-adjust: none; font-stretch: =
normal"><STRONG>Sent:</STRONG>=20
Saturday, December 20, 2014 9:00 PM </DIV>
<DIV=20
style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial; font-size-adjust: none; font-stretch: =
normal"><STRONG>Subject:</STRONG>=20
Re: Scope of NatureNS: Re: Long again: Re: Long: Re: [NatureNS] =
light=20
</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV><BR>
<DIV class=3Dmoz-cite-prefix>On 12/20/2014 6:33 PM, David & =
Alison=20
Webster wrote: </DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE type=3D"cite">
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV> Opposition to wind generation has often =
come=20
strangely enough from Naturalists; organizations or =
individuals.=20
This was helped I expect by a famous site in California that was =
set in=20
a raptor migration channel in a mountain pass by, what a =
concidence, a=20
Petrochemical Company. </DIV></BLOCKQUOTE><BR>* experience in =
Ontario has=20
been that these "green" energy projects are often put in by =
ecologically=20
insensitive firms, prompting the new provincial motto of Ontario =
"green is=20
black." <A=20
=
href=3D"http://www.saveostranderpoint.org/#sthash.LufTSMYD.dpbs">http://w=
ww.saveostranderpoint.org/#sthash.LufTSMYD.dpbs</A>=20
is a tale of a wind farm in an "important bird area" where the =
Ministry of=20
the Environment joined the "proponent's" appeal of a decision that =
the=20
project posed an unacceptable risk to a SAR, and the whole basis =
of the=20
Ontario Rivers Alliance <A=20
=
href=3D"http://www.ontarioriversalliance.ca/">http://www.ontarioriversall=
iance.ca/</A>=20
was "green is black" mesoscale hydro projects that were to be =
blotted all=20
across the norther part of the province - <A=20
=
href=3D"http://karstaddailypaintings.blogspot.ca/2012/10/precious-wild-ri=
vers-calendar-for-2013.html">http://karstaddailypaintings.blogspot.ca/201=
2/10/precious-wild-rivers-calendar-for-2013.html</A>=20
- see my comments. Another instance of this single-purpose =
insensitivity=20
is the solar farms that are put in with no concern for Species at =
Risk=20
that might be encouraged to live among the panels. <BR><BR>Just as =
is the=20
case with massive certified-organic agriculture, if we're going to =
have=20
green infrastructure it must be green all the way down - which =
will=20
require substantial re-education of the industrial/financial sorts =
- it's=20
not enough that politicians respond to the need to make =
alternative=20
sources of energy useable - these installations must be installed =
with=20
ecological sensitivity to the local sites, and in consultation =
with the=20
local Human population. <BR><BR>fred. <BR><PRE =
class=3Dmoz-signature>--=20
------------------------------------------------------------
Frederick W. Schueler & Aleta Karstad
Daily Paintings - <A =
href=3D"http://karstaddailypaintings.blogspot.com/">http://karstaddailypa=
intings.blogspot.com/</A>
Vulnerable Watersheds - <A =
href=3D"http://vulnerablewaters.blogspot.ca/">http://vulnerablewaters.blo=
gspot.ca/</A>
Mudpuppy Night in Oxford Mills - <A =
href=3D"http://pinicola.ca/mudpup1.htm">http://pinicola.ca/mudpup1.htm</A=
>
RR#2 Bishops Mills, Ontario, Canada K0G 1T0
on the Smiths Falls Limestone Plain 44* 52'N 75* 42'W
(613)258-3107 <bckcdb at istar.ca> <A =
href=3D"http://pinicola.ca/">http://pinicola.ca/</A>
------------------------------------------------------------
</PRE><A></A>
<P align=3Dleft>No virus found in this message.<BR>Checked by AVG =
- <A=20
href=3D"http://www.avg.com">www.avg.com</A><BR>Version: =
2015.0.5577 / Virus=20
Database: 4253/8775 - Release Date: =
12/20/14</P></BLOCKQUOTE></BLOCKQUOTE>
<DIV><BR> </DIV><A></A>
<P align=3Dleft color=3D"#000000" avgcert??>No virus found in this=20
message.<BR>Checked by AVG - <A=20
href=3D"http://www.avg.com">www.avg.com</A><BR>Version: 2015.0.5577 / =
Virus=20
Database: 4253/8778 - Release Date: =
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