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production implies a control mechanism to a --089e01538ad87473b104fd18c29e Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Dave, With respect, and in hopes of adding some balance here, I do not feel that your strong language here is appropriate and possibly, though I am not personally offended, it could be perceived as offensive to some. Science can move forward by rational argument, but how do you defend your use of the word 'delusion' in reference to the idea that collecting turtles could be one factor affecting turtle population viability? (To my knowledge no one has yet, including the Natural History Museum web site, suggested that collecting turtles is the main threat to turtle populations so your statement is misleading). 'Delusion' to me implies belief in a notion that is attractive but false. From what I've seen you have not provided any quantitative evidence supporting the notion that collecting turtles has no,or little, effect on turtle populations. Until then I feel you are not yet free to throw around the word 'delusion'. One place I would suggest the discussion starts is with the COSEWIC status report on the Wood Turtle. If the discussion starts with research rather than anecdote there is possibility for making some headway in this discussion. Otherwise, in my opinion, your argument (as I understand it: that there is no harm and that we actually lose out by not collecting turtles), which is not yet based on evidence, and not one that to my knowledge many scientists agree with, is perhaps misdirecting our energies and misleading people that are listening to this conversation. In the spirit of science and rational argument. Cheers, James On Monday, June 30, 2014, James Hirtle <jrhbirder@hotmail.com <javascript:_e(%7B%7D,'cvml','jrhbirder@hotmail.com');>> wrote: > Not threatened or endangered yet, but a painted turtle was crossing the > Fisherman's Memorial Highway just outside of Hammond's Plains when I was > coming home last night. I missed it as did the car behind me, but as to > its fate after that who knows. > > James R. Hirtle > Bridgewater > > > ------------------------------ > From: dwebster@glinx.com > To: GILHENJA@gov.ns.ca; HEBDAAJ@gov.ns.ca; NatureNS@chebucto.ns.ca > Subject: [NatureNS] Wood Turtle: long > Date: Mon, 30 Jun 2014 19:13:41 -0300 > > Hi John, Andrew & All, > I noticed on a post to naturens recently that (from the NS Museum of > NH site)-- > "It may seem harmless to keep a turtle as a pet for a while, but this is > not a good idea. Two of the province's four turtle species are already at > risk in Nova Scotia. It is likely that removal of turtles by people is part > of the reason, for Wood Turtles." > > I expect this supposition rests in part on your 1984 > statement (Amphibians and Reptiles of Nova Scotia p. 148) that-- > "Another problem facing the Wood Turtle is the removal of many individuals > from their habitat by people while on fishing trips or camping trips" which > are then subsequently "released in the woods many kilometers from its > natural habitat." > > Perhaps you can provide some details of the observations on which your > above statement was based. > > To get a third viewpoint for comparison I went to Wood Turtle on > Wikipedia and with some personal satisfaction note that much of their text, > re Wood Turtles range wide, might have been written by me re turtles and > amphibians in NS; e.g. emphasis on habitat loss, traffic fatalities, a plug > for culvert underpasses and the observation that an overabundant Raccoon > threatens WTs at all life stages. They quite rightly list commercial > collections made for the international pet trade as a genuine threat. They > note without commentary that "Brochures and other media that warn people > to avoid keeping the wood turtle as a pet are currently being > distributed."; a variant of damming by faint praise. > With respect to culvert underpasses I paste the following-- > START OF PASTE\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\ > Hi Lisa & All, July 31, 2008 > I dare say you are already moving in this direction, but a small > animal underpass, suitably located (e.g. where you were escorting > toadlets in this instance) would be less labour-intensive and > consequently more practicable in the long run. > > Why Conservation organizations have not lobbied for and made public > noises about small animal crossings beats me. Perhaps I have not been > paying attention but I have noticed that some have been installed in the > UK. Even modest highways with light traffic can be effective barriers to > movement of Reptiles and Amphibians, either by preventing access to the > roadway or by killing some that do make it. > > Based on road kills observed while walking, I think snakes must sun > on gravel roads where they blend in nicely before and after being > flattened. And a 20-cm high ridge of gravel, thrown up by a road grader, > can stop a 30-cm snake from crossing. And a highway sand cut, at angle > of repose after about 25 years, acts as a solid wall to a toad (in dry > weather; wet might be different). > > Yours truly, Dave Webster, Kentville > > END OF PASTE\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\ > And just one more example-- > START OF PASTE\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\ > Hi Flora & All, Apr 3, 2006 > Traffic on our highways is unfortunately a very effective way to kill > small animals; invertebrate & vertebrate. I dug out two responses to this > spring rush (pasted below) and am struck by the agreement in timing. As > noted in my post of Sept 17, 2005, underpasses can be very effective at > least for snakes. > Thanks for the opportunity to flog a pet idea. > DW > > Flora Cordis Johnson wrote: > > Last night's rain, though undoubtedly needed, brought the first amphibian > roadkills of spring to my neck of the woods, and a lot of them. In a 3/4 > mile stretch of road that runs through a wetland east of my house on > Cloverdale Road, near Middle Stewiacke, I counted three dead spring > peepers, ranging in size from about a half inch to about an inch in length, > and a large (about 2 inch) dark-charcoal coloured salamander with faint > blue markings on its sides. In addition there were several unidentifiable > splats -- which, judging from size and weather, were most likely ex-frogs. > I brought the salamander home in a dead leaf and photographed it. > A sad Wild Flora in Birch Hill > > > START OF PASTES\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\ > Hi Anne & All, Mar 31, 2002 > I recall hearing some years ago that toad (or frog ?) underpasses had > been installed on some British highways, really culverts at ditch level, > and had substantially reduced road kills. > I wonde