Interview with Peter
Interview: Sept. 30, 1996
J; I usually begin with demographics about the group in order to get a profile of what the group is like. Could you tell me how it's proportioned along the lines o f race or ethnicity.
S: Since we started, which I guess would be seven years ago, in 1989 after the Montreal Massacre, we've had a very good cross-section of race and ethnicity. We've had members from the local Micmac community, members of the Black community... but I would say predominantly over the course of time - I mean in the last seven years - the current membership is very much the white, middle-class, mostly heterosexual... university educated is fairly typical as well, and I think it's fair to say most of the guys are over thirty. So that fits the profile of the men's movements - that's the Robert Bly men's movement-type-stuff, which I can also talk about.
So, we're typically that, and we're typically not necessarily batterers, although we work very closely with the local men's intervention program and we frequently do get men coming to chat who have been through men's treatment programs for male abuse, but it's not a self-help group for batterers. It's more for men who are pr o-feminist and politically aligned with the agenda of dealing with gender issues in our society. And we're mostly able-bodied too, although I'm thinking of a guy in a wheelchair who has come to meetings. So we have exceptions, but I'd say it's fair to categorize the group as a "middle-class white guys bunch"!
j: Would you put yourself into those categories as well?
s: I would describe myself as a middle class white guy - my Dad's an industrialist and I grew up in small-town Nova Scotia... Actually we were poor; we were poor in the old days, but my Dad's fairly well-off now. He has his own business. I would describe myself as a university-educated, white, heterosexual male, which is kind of curious because I have all the power in society, so it's an interesting conversation around what it is exactly that I'm trying to do to challenge everything that I have - all the privilege I have. It's a fascinating question that's been a desire of mine to explore for - pretty well over seven years now.
j: I think in a sense men have more to deal with in terms of privilege.
s: Well, there's that price - the price that we pay for keeping ourselves down, we keep ourselves held back, we keep ourselves emotionally neuter, we keep ourselves in fear of each other as men. We keep ourselves trapped in a very restricted box of expectations and stereotypes, and with that there's some suppressed different cat that's paid for that, but that's a price that's paid for most privileged groups. The whites in South Africa paid a similar price I would think.
I'm very careful with the language around that - there is oppression and I would describe males at the top as "suppressed", which is a form of some kind of control - it's not a typical hierarchical imbalance of power and control but I would describe th e price as a kind of suppression of our full humanity. Collectively we keep ourselves down, we keep ourselves held back, we keep ourselves emotionally neuter, we keep ourselves in fear of each other as men. We keep ourselves trapped in a very restricted box of expectations and stereotypes, and with that there's some suppressiifferent categories within that; I guess she's a Rosemary Radford Reuther kind. So, there's a certain influence in my life around that - her feminist work and her friends and my friends, as women - my women ix experience, a new type of person comes. So I certainly found out a great deal about who I was and really introspected a lot on my position and my place in society and what it was to be a male. I really challenged a lot of that stuff. So that was pathe rocks... it was a fabulous moment, in fact it was a four-year moment - to rebuild exactly what it is that I am. Like, if I'm not that kind of a husband, if I'm not this kind of a partner... I think having that sort of calamity in my life was a real catalyst for introspection and personal growth and I actually started to think what would happen if I stayed with the relationship - I don't think I'd be anywhere near the place I am today. So it is a fascinating thing that out of t hat sort of phoenix experience, a new type of person comes. So I certainly found out a great deal about who I was and really introspected a lot on my position and my place in society and what it was to be a male. I really challenged a lot of that stuff. So that was paknow, in the 'third world', because we tell them they' haven't protested any military industrial complexes for a couple of years now.
j: Just militant relationships?!
s: Militant relationships, yeah!
j: Can you tell me a bit about what the group does, what the goals are?
ting to inform ourseo's really running this planet, and it became moderately obvious to me that it was men that use war to solve their problems and violence, and so from the macro to the micro - interpersonal violence and dating violence and stuff like that - it's all on a spectrum of how men see the world and their own insecurities and their need to co ntrol. So that all started to work from the big down to the small. I'm currently working at the micro level with interpersonal relationships. So I haven't protested any m ilitary industrial complexes for a couple of years now.
j: Just militant relationships?!
s: Militant relationships, yeah!
j: Can you tell me a bit about what the group does, what the goals are?
ting to inform ourselves, so we meet every month, and we would have a two-hour meeting - an open meeting. Men and women would in fact come to it. And I think it was abo ut a year before we actually decided on a name - "Men for Change". 'Men Ag ainst Violence Agai on family violence, violence in general or dating violence, whatever, or cu ltural stuff, and then we'd have an hour discussion and in the hour discussion time we w ould actually be sort of organically moved into just guys talking in a small group, de b e that as probably a small problem with the women's movement - that they're very ab undantly clear what they're not for, what they're against, but what is it that they are tr ying to invite? And that's I think where men can be invited in... but we can talk about that more as we get to women's only events and stuff like that.
But, to back up on the organization, we started off with a tow-hour meeting where we had a guest speaker and/or a video, so there would be a speaker or some sort o f video on family violence, violence in general or dating violence, whatever, or cu ltural stuff, and then we'd have an hour discussion and in the hour discussion time we w ould actually be sort of organically moved into just guys talking in a small group, de b fit into our journeys and our lives? - So, we he r.
It's an interesting foundation for the work that I do, because it becomes centred on who it is that I am as a male that I can better outreach toward what it is tha t I want other men to do, and it's not necessarily just - you know - 'don't telt's the educated.d to be women who perspire? (laughs)
s: Yeah, that's right! Well, there were the boys - we were perspiring, we weren't sweating like men!
So we thought we would explore ritual, and we do drum, we do tell stories and we do explore, or sort of move into that area of ritual that requires trust, and requir es a process that explores something really a great deal deeper than what's traditio nally explored with men. So I'm very interested in moving in that direction even furthe r.
It's an interesting foundation for the work that I do, because it becomes centred on who it is that I am as a male that I can better outreach toward what it is tha t I want other men to do, and it's not necessarily just - you know - 'don't telt's the educated. I mean, the distinctions based on class...it's - I some of the major stumbling blocks - namely capitalism, religio us institutions, patriarchy itself of course. There's the money system, the religiou s system, there's the government system - democracy I think is a pretty major stumbling blo ck.
I'a National Film Board video - and...she just sming new age.
I really should get you this overhead - it's a fabulous portrayal of how societie s have evolved over the course of the last couple of millennia, from agrarian/farmi ng, sort of matrilinear society to a male-dominated/patrilinear society to a new mill ennium, which I think is called a partnership society, where men and women litera lly are partners and equal. I really invite that kind of stuff, but in order to do that I have to deal with some of the major stumbling blocks - namely capitalism, religio us institutions, patriarchy itself of course. There's the money system, the religiou s system, there's the government system - democracy I think is a pretty major stumbling blo ck.
I'a National Film Board video - and...she just says it so well in that - how we sur round ourselves by all the things that we need to reinforce what it is we have, our pri vilege - professional sports, or example: men at play, dominating everything they dominate! Annating, and that reinforces the whole notion of them all as the b ig action heroes - you know, "Die Hard" andr as well.
s: Oh that's fascinating! Let's get into that. I was fascinated by that, and I wa nt to add this to it too: The first movie I've seen where a Black American is actual ly the star is - there's a little change here because usually they're never the hero es - but there is a new one - it's a violent film, I forget what it's called - shoot ! -but he's actually the Jean Claude Van Damme or Schwartzenagger- type action hero. And I'm fascinated with that because he has the position of control in the film, and that's not a typical position for a black man. It's very interesting - it's usual ly the white men who are dominating, and that reinforces the whole notion of them all as the b ig action heroes - you know, "Die Hard" and all that kind of stuff. But h e is the star of his own action moviself as a pro-feminist, as in - 'I am pro/in support of what feminists say, what feminists call for and the an alysis that they use'. I incorporate feminist pedagogy in my education, for example, at least what I understand it to be - I haven't delvedot; labels?
s: I'm glad you asked that. I think it's absolutely ridiculous when a guy stands up and says "Oh, I'm a feminist!". That just drives me nuts. I can't be a feminist. I like the feminist definition by Virginia Woolf that a feminist is any woman who tells the truth about her life. And, you know - if that definition is in place I can't use it, because I can't tell the truth about my life as a woman! (laughs) It doesn't make any sense. So, I would very clearly identify myself as a pro-feminist, as in - 'I am pro/in support of what feminists say, what feminists call for and the an alysis that they use'. I incorporate feminist pedagogy in my education, for example, at least what I understand it to be - I haven't delved which WAS dealing with those things, walking ut I thought that that could be an ally's role - a very concrete role as an ally for women - 'with' women, rather -not 'for'... With.
j: Would you say there's a men's movement? Can it be defined?
s: No. Plural: Men's MovementS - there'sovement because it unpacks eal with them in different ways. Someti mes it is a matter of getting into a conversation, but if you want to get into the ma rch and keep going, you can't stop and start a dialogue.
s: And I don't want to paint the picture that there should be a bunch of guys fla nking this march to pick up on this hot stuff, because that's almost - almost like we'r e defending you, and that's the opposite purpose... And if I did that I would check it out with the women first, but I thought that that could be an ally's role - a very concrete role as an ally for women - 'with' women, rather -not 'for'... With.
j: Would you say there's a men's movement? Can it be defined?
s: No. Plural: Men's MovementS - there'sovement because it unpacks some of the vulnerability of masculinity, some of the deeper truths of what mascu linity could be. I think there are very distinct advantages of that, with the possibilit y that men that are only locked into that exploration of what it is - they're not t he power and control sort of masculinity - they can very much be trapped by a certai n self-indulgence in that level of exploration.
It can meet your inner needs to heal the wound with your father that was distance d from you, for example, but I think it needs to - (at least for myself - I try to pull back from telling other men what to do) - for me, it has been useful to expl ore the personal, but to translate it to the political: that is the whole journey. If , as for the personal, I don't translate the political then it's half a journey for me, so I'm not telling what men should do, I'm just saying that that's what worked for mved with it for so long. But, for example, Stoltenberg's work is rivetting. I think it's fascinating - he's ver y strong, very sharp. I liked what he meant, I think it meant something to me. Kimm el - and also Michael Kaufman - have you talked to him?
s: I have that book, and I started to flip through it.
j: I read it a few months ago and it was really interesting, how the two were so opposed and then there is some "coming together"... there are a number of peopl e who are sort of in the middle ground, drawing on both movements.
s: I'm fascinated... I really don't pretend to be well-read on this topic, which I think is kind of ironic considering I've been involved with it for so long. But, for example, Stoltenberg's work is rivetting. I think it's fascinating - he's ver y strong, very sharp. I liked what he meant, I think it meant something to me. Kimm el - and also Michael Kaufman - have you talked to him?
j: There are a number of views on the topic. There's an anthology called "Wo men Respond to the Men's Movement", and it is TO that particular movement. It's quite go od.
s: And what do women say about the pro-feminist boys?
j: There is some criticism. But, in this anthology, mostly, they're leaning towar d pro-feminist movements, saying that the "real" men's movement is in thi s realm and this is where we should be looking and what we should consider 'the men's movemen t'. There is a great critique of the power aspect (of the mythopoetic movement). I th ink, in terms of the pro-feminist movement, most of the critiques I've read have been abo ut the lack of diversity - that it is mostly privileged men doing this - and not dea ling with differences among men. But I think that's starting to happen more.
s: Yeah, I think it is, and I add to that just briefly: Our subtitle is "pro -feminist, male-positive, gay-affirmative", and we did have anti-racist in there, but, to be quite honest with you, I've done nothing towards that. I mean, there is a black m en's group. It's a sort of peer group - 'Black Men Reaching Out' - and they try to wo rk with younger men. I have no idea who is the contact for that I'm afraid. Shoot. B ut that would be useful to have because obviously there is a large black community i n Halifax - so there is that connection there.
I know black men and that sort of stuff but we don't have an ongoing dialogue as to what it means to be a black male in our society and we haven't really done a lot of bridges in terms of the racism issues. Much more in the gay community - I've b een working in the gay community doing some work with various projects, and I have fa across North America, but we're market ing it here in Nova Scotia. We print it and I send the stuff out on my computer and w e market it ourselves, get mailing lists and so on...
... The relre for violence against women and children, or something...and they did a review of our program and we're the only program recommended for secondary school s, for violence prevention. We've also been selected out of twelve violence prevent ion resources in North America - we're selected for a three-year study by the University of Win nipeg. I'm going there next week to teach the teachers how to use it. So needless to say , it's catching on. And the reason it's catching on is because there's a gender a nalysis. It looks really deeply into why it is that men are violent and how it is that we socialize. I mean, it takes years and years of training to turn a boy into a viol hat you're doing?
s: Most women say "Ah! Finally!". Some women are a little... what's the word? - hesitant, apprehensive, something. Some who have been at it for awhile, are kind of... you know, have waited to see what we're up to bas we package thatl received. So I think th at is probably one of the strongest contributions we've made to the dialogue around gender in general, sexism in particular, and it's particularly pleasing to make a n offering like that to the larger community, to educators, to people who are conce rned about teenagers and violence. So that's been a cool thing!
j: Another topic I'd like to deal with is the range of responses to your work: Wh at kind of responses have you had - when you tell people what you're doing?
s: Most women say "Ah! Finally!". Some women are a little... what's the word? - hesitant, apprehensive, something. Some who have been at it for awhile, are kind of... you know, have waited to see what we're up to bas we package that in a form that really clicks with t eachers, like - teachers that don't know much about this stuff. I was trying to introduce the concept of stereotypes and stuff, and the women said "look, we've done t his twenty years ago - tell us something new!" And I was saying "Yes, that' s true. It's fine, but this is our offering, you know - we've got this program, it's selling l ike hot cakes literally, because it's just really meeting a need across the country&q uot;. I was just trying to sort of describe it - 'this is, in fact, where a lot of people are coming from, and we ARE introducing this stuff'. So basically I... I felt shamed actually, which is a very powerful experience and I haven't had that much. I felt shamed by the women that were participating because they were really minimalizing our contr ibutions and whatever we were trying to do. And there was a little bit of 'academics vers us people that are in the classrooms' problem there too - there was a little hott y-tottiness with that. So that was a painful experience for me, and I bring that up in the co nversation because it wasn't well-received in that point of view, and arguably, maybe I didn 't respect that these were well-seasoned, well-read academics that really know the issues, and perhaps I didn't... perhaps I was patronizing, in fact. I'm prepared to accept that - that I wasn't terribly aware of where they were coming from. That was the first time I'd been in a circle of academic feminists, because usually I work with grassroots feminists.
So there was a certain dismissal of some of the work that we're trying to do, whi ch brought up for me the whole issue of 'well, what is it that you want us to do?' I mean, this is our contribution. If it's not good enough then - let's talk about i t - whatnce; it was a good learning experience for me, because I re alized that there's a whole body of thought there that has been really slugging a way for years. And I almost got the sense that they've been slugging away for years - so, they almost didn't wa arted at such a young level. So, it IS new.
s: Well, there's a lot of new stuff in there. I mean, the junior high program, an d having it accepted by the school boards and thoroughly endorsed by a whole bunch of them... they're using it in the city of Miami. I mean, there's a lot of ground that's being covered. We're appealing to a whole... huge broad spectrum of stuff. .. And, maybe I didn't communicate it, maybe they didn't want to listen, I don't know. But it w as not a positive experience; it was a good learning experience for me, because I re alized that there's a whole body of thought there that has been really slugging a way for years. And I almost got the sense that they've been slugging away for years - so, they almost didn't wa time trying to figure out what exactly happened. And I invited conversation on and it.. you n ow, some women did say that it was a little bit of a difference between academics ver sus 'in the classroom' -type people, because there's always that tension. And, a litt le bit of difference between - you know - they're not entirely sure what to do when a man stands up and says 'I agree'. I think it's a real challenge, I'd really inv ite more dialogue on that.
j: It's interesting... What about other men? What kind of responses do you get?
s: Well, that's interesting because what exact opportunities do we have to
speak
with
other men on a regular basis? I mean, my brother-in-law is a fabulous
guy... and
I'm always going on about talking about my feelings and all this stuff, so
they r
oll
their eyes a little bit, but basically they're right in there. They know
where I'
m coming
from... I find it can be fairly... it's difficult to be vulnerable around
men. Th
ey're
not quite too sure what to do with it. And, one of my pet peeves for
example, is
when men hug each other - they SLAP each other: they go 'pat pat pat'.
j: The football hug!
s: The football hug! And I've told people that I find that... it just
doesn't con
nect
with me. It's such a superficial, patronizing kind of... 'pat pat pat',
and I tel
l
my friends that, and they say "OH Geez, Pete, come on...", you
know. An
d I say "No,
this is who I am, this is what I'm experiencing...", and now they'll
all sor
t of... linger
a little bit when they hug me (laughs). So, this is a conversation of our
reflect
ion
group - when we hug each other... we do hug each other when we leave and
all that
stuff, and when we say Hi... and I just don't - it feels so superficial to
me: I
mean,
what is it that you're afraid of if you actually thoroughly embrace
another male
tightly? What is the challenge there? What's the vulnerability?
So I find it's kind of... difficult to deal with some of the issues
because it re
ally
impacts around the male's own sense of - one, hiding from themselves; and
if I pr
esent
myself as someone who is very open about who I am and really real about my
hopes
and needs and concerns and feelings and thoughts, that it can be
intimidating for
other
men because it sets up a different tone. And I do, in workshops,
frequently get g
uys
saying 'Oh, so what about, you know, men that are being beaten up, men
that are b
eing abused' And so, that's the way they deal with their
uncomfortableness, by tr
ying
to minimize the huge factor of the systematic abuse of women by men. Often
when I
deal with that in public forums I say - "Well, you're bringing that
up for t
wo reasons
- either because you have a personal experience, and if that's the case,
let's ta
lk. Or,
you're bringing it up because you're trying to minimalize the much larger
and muc
h
more difficult thing to look at - that there is a huge realm of the abuse
of powe
r
and control systematically by men, over women in our culture. And if you
have a h
ard time
dealing with that, then we can talk with that, but let's not use it as a
way to d
eny
the bigger experience." So, there's that kind of response, that is
frequent,
so in
workshop scenarios, that's how it comes forward.
j: the equalizing... 'It's just as bad for men'!
s: Exactly, they try to equalize or rationalize, and I try to... I accept
the com
ment
when I say 'there's motivation behind your comment and I'd rather deal
with that'
.
We did have a guy... We did have a guy!... I'm flashing back -We did have
a guy,
making
threats to us! We had a guy that was well-known to the university... He
was well-
known
to the university paper - because he would write scathing things against
women. A
nd he found out about us, and he started making calls to some of the
members that
were publicly identified and he would leave messages on our machines about
- you
know, 'You're just sucking up to feminists, and you want to get laid by
feminists
'
and all this stuff... 'so you're sucking up to them... and if I see you on
the st
reet I'll
smash your face in' and all this stuff... I mean, serious! Like, he was
just so v
ulnerable
- it was so sad! In fact, he threatened to smash one of the guys' tires
and we...
I mean, this is a very long story... but he called me, because I was on
televisio
n
against the Gulf War and I made a comment that, you know, war in the gulf
is just
like violence against women - it's male power and control, and you know...
blah b
lah
blah... And he called me, telling me 'you support women' and 'damn
feminists', an
d all this
stuff, and he didn't know that I was in the men's group. So I had his
voice on ta
pe,
and one of the other guys in the group that he'd made threats to had his
voice on
tape and ... actually I think he got charged with uttering threats. So...
he's si
nce
joined the Reform Party ( both laugh)... which I think is quite funny! So,
I'm fo
llowing
his career... It's really ironic - he keeps popping up!
So in terms of our response... it's quite clear that there's a whole
sector of me
n
that are really threatened, not just a little bit insecure, or a little
bit defen
sive,
but REALLY threatened by the fact that men will, quote unquote, 'take the
side' w
ith
women. And, they have no idea what to do with that, and all they can do is
threat
en...
he was so very vulnerable and insecure. So, that's part of the story about
our gr
oup
in this community.
j: One of the less pleasant aspects of the group!
s: Well, I'd love to have a chat with him, I really would! Because there's
always
something that's there - some seed of something there, you know, there's
somethin
g
that's motivating him - I don't know what it is, but... I'd love to spend
some ti
me
with him and try to talk it through a little bit. I don't need to win him
over, b
ut I want
to learn from why he's so painfully defensive, and why he just feels so
raw when
we speak our truth... he becomes raw, and what is that? Fascinating.
j: How does your work affect your relationships on a personal level - with
women,
with co-workers, anyone...?
s: Wonderful! It's so nice! I was in a live-in relationship a couple of
years ag
o
for about three years, and, one, it was great to have the guys to talk to,
becaus
e
whenever I'd run into something it was 'oh my god, I can't believe
this!...' - an
d
so I could always chat it up with the boys. Umm, but really, it helped me
accept.
.. well,
there's so much to this! - there's the overall just figuring out who I am
as a pe
rson,
and then when you have a deeper sense of self, you can contribute more to
a relat
ionship obviously. The whole thing about projecting your needs on the
other perso
n - all
that kind of stuff - that's gone, or at least you're conscious of it, when
you're
aware of yourself. So I think the journey towards constructive masculinity
has re
ally
been beneficial for me in terms of just my own ability to be comfortable
with exp
ressing
who it is that I am as a male, as a person. You know, the whole thing
about hones
ty
- this is my emotional experience right now, this is what's going on for
me, inst
ead
of, you know, closing up or backing off or whatever guys do when they get
in trou
ble
with their relationships.
And so - I'm just going to contextualize that by saying that in my
heterosexual r
elationships
- but also in my friendships with my gay friends, I'm much more open about
their
reality because I'm not as threatened by them. you know, there would have
been a
time when I was a teenager when 'fag' or 'homo' or whatever would have
been a thr
eat
to me. But because I'm more comfortable with my own sexuality I'm more
secure abo
ut
who I am, hugging a gay friend is not a sexual overture, it's just
expression of
affection and trust, and you know, joking with gay men about sexuality or
talking
about
their hopes and fears about relationships is just another way to connect
to them.
I think it's helped me not only deal with my own relationships as a
straight guy
- enhancing the quality of that relationship and dealing with things with,
you kn
ow
being comfortable with my intimacy and expressing my anger in appropriate
ways as
opposed to being really... you know, hurtful with my anger. I think it's
enhanced
that. I
think it's also enhanced my relationships with gay friends and... I think
maybe t
here's
a whole bunch of empathy that's in place there too. I'm not sure exactly
what tha
t
means, but empathy is your ability to actually experience the emotions of
another
person,
and I think if I'm in touch with that, I think it just makes it better for
me to
communicate with others. I mean, I still have my fears of rejection... but
at lea
st
I'm aware of the fact that I carry that, and when I'm in an experience
where I'm,
you
know, being rejected, I can name it - I can say 'this is what's
happening'. So...
I was just going to say I'm more in control, but I guess it's control in a
very p
ositive
way, because I really... I have the power for self-awareness. And I think
it's a
very
mutual kind of power because I have a lot to share if I have that
self-awareness.
I think my participation in the men's group has been a very strong
catalyst in gr
owing
in that area.
j: Has this pro-feminist work influenced your concept of family?
s: Family? Hmm... curious question. Family... well, I've got two lesbian
friends
that
are having a baby. (laughs)... I'm not sure... that's what's in my mind -
that's
family! So, I guess the bottom line is it's really expanded my definition
of fami
ly.
There are lots of single-parent moms that I know, a single-parent dad in
fact, an
d lots
of... I think the intense part of that would be my whole definition of
fatherhood
- how it's intensified the beauty of being really real with children, and
not hav
ing
this sort of... you know, I mean we do a lot of introspection on our
relationship
s with
our fathers in men's groups - for some reason, we don't really talk much
about ou
r
relationships with our moms, which is kind of interesting, I don't know
why....
j: Yes, aren't you supposed to be blaming her for everything?!
(both laugh)
s: Oh, something! I did that for a little while, but she's cool now! I
mean we r
eally
- we learn more about being a male from our dads. So I think our feelings
around
connection with our fathers is probably much more valuable territory to
explore,
so we tend to dwell on that a little bit more, because - well, I say that
in the
context
of a question on the family - because, what is it that we do in our
relationship
with children (I'm a professional uncle, for example - I've got a whole
bunch of
uncle scenarios) so, what is the quality of my relationship with my nieces
and ne
phews and how
does that impact on that and... I think it's a much more, ah - one thing,
I'm ver
y
conscious of stereotypes, I'm always challenging stereotypes and you know,
showin
g
my niece how to fix a car and sniffing flowers with my nephew, kind of
thing... I
'm trying
to consciously not promote that kind of rigid restriction - restrictive
gender sc
ript
around what's male and what's to be female. So that's part of it for me
and I can
't
really speak for the other guys, but I'm sure it impacts on the quality of
th f
or
us. It is also a huge catalyst for the White Ribbon Campaign. And it's a
huge cat
alyst
for the Purple Ribbon Campaign, which is unique to Nova Scotia. We get
involved i
n
the Purple Ribbon Campaign - we distribute the purple ribbons. Women's
grouaus's groups for a second: Do you think there is a
specifically
Canadian context - do you notice differences between what's going on in
the State
s
and here?
s: I'm not that familiar with the States. The only Canadian context that I
can th
ink
of is - a lot of groups started after the Montreal Massacre. So, ours
exists beca
use
the Montreal Massacre took place So whatever silver lining from that
painful inci
dent
in Canadian history - herstory actually, Canadian herstory - is a huge
catalyst f
or
us. It is also a huge catalyst for the White Ribbon Campaign. And it's a
huge cat
alyst
for the Purple Ribbon Campaign, which is unique to Nova Scotia. We get
involved i
n
the Purple Ribbon Campaign - we distribute the purple ribbons. Women's
grouause
you're a male and you want to do something about the violence - so it's
more... m
eans
more accountability for ending violence, as opposed to a memorial. I mean,
we've
had stwork for C
hange" or something like that, for Massachussets, and then there's
NOMAS - w
hich is the
big organization in the States. I haven't read a lot of their stuff. I
have a gen
eral
sense... if I want to comment on anything even if I don't knothe white
ribbon in Nova Scotia because of that reason. So it's been sort of a pr
oblem,
but in fact a lot of schools actually do both. They seem to work it out
Ok.
But your question was...
j:... anything that was specifically Canadian?
s: Oh yeah. Well, I think it's colder... (both laugh) No, I think... I
don't know
,
most men in the States - and I really don't know many... I'm connected
with the M
assachussets
group, which has a fabulous newsletter. It's the "Valley Men's
Network for C
hange" or something like that, for Massachussets, and then there's
NOMAS - w
hich is the
big organization in the States. I haven't read a lot of their stuff. I
have a gen
eral
sense... if I want to comment on anything even if I don't knothey sort of
kept things going and then the project was over and we all came back
together again. We said 'here's the project' and they said 'Oh, that's
great... w
ell,
we don't like it; we had nothing to do with it!' So, I don't know.
So there were some hard feelings there and we had to work that through.
But basic
ally
it's a fairly... uh, clean.... I mean the people that come and stay
basically all
believe in the same stuff. You get individual approaches on how to deal
with it b
ut
basically - they're Ok with women's issues, they're Ok with talking about
themsel
ves...
so, I guess I'm trying to say that you don't typically get huge spectrums
of disa
greement
within the group because by the time they come to meetings, they've
already got s
ome sort of value system in place that make
the years like - we co-hosted a film series with the National Film Board,
for exa
mple;
we did a Friday night film series on various topics of violence, and we
would hav
e
a film and, with the audience, a guest speaker who would debrief the
topic. We also
of them, we did - ah, Vision TV - did a show on changing men, an
d
we did part of a show called 'Skylight' - I have a videotape if you're
interested
in it. And we did another thing on 'Y/TV' - they did a special on our
curriculum
project,
so they came to the schools, videotaped the kids and us doing it, and all
that st
uff.
So Y/TV and Vision TV have both done it - we've been on the news and all
that sor
t
of stuff and part of our community outreach is we've done quite a bit of
stuff ov
er
the years like - we co-hosted a film series with the National Film Board,
for exa
mple;
we did a Friday night film series on various topics of violence, and we
would hav
e
a film and, with the audience, a guest speaker who would debrief the
topic. We also
did a three-part series with the city library on 'changing men's roles in
the '90
s'.
So there's various things we've done in the community. We've spoken at
events and
stuff, we've participated in International Women's Day, for example - we
had a li
ttle
display set up at that, which was... a little side anecdote for you there:
Intern
ational Women's Day is a very women-centred event, obviously, but we did
have a t
able out
where we had our information. It was quite curious because they had a big
panel,
for the media... they had like eight women and they had a cop sitting on
the corn
t's where we ar
e
today - because women have met to organize themselves around that topic.
And I th
ink,
Why the hell aren't you guys up there, sitting at the table with the me
dia,
talking on International Women's Day - and why is that cop up
there?!"
So, that was a couple years ago and we never did get an invitation to sit
at the
table...
But - my closing remark would be: My vision of life in the future would
be that
there would be a day when there isn't a need for women to meet by
themselves. I t
hink there's a very valid need for women to do that; I think the women's
movement
has
really offered a safe place for women to explore their own sense and their
own re
alities
with oppression. And I think I have to celebrate that, because that's
where we ar
e
today - because women have met to organize themselves around that topic.
And I th
ink,
for a great deal of men, at least in my experience, that's exactly where
the men'
s
movement is right now - that we are gathering as ourselves to try to
figure out w
hat
it is to be male, what is tworld!
But it's where everybody gets to believe in each other and trust in each
other. B
ut
I see that as, you know, the movements - if you will - are really kind of
running
we're in, trying to live up to the expectations - th
at
we're tough and in control and never show your feelings and never cry when
you're
hurt,
that we have to keep our pain inside - and that really does affect us as a
person
,
and as a male.
So we're gathering to work ourselves out and I do welcome the day when
both men a
nd
women are sitting down on a much more regular basis to talk about what it
is that
we can do to make society better for us all. Gay and straight and male and
female
- you know...able-bodied and not. I mean - it's just a happy vision for a
beautif
ul world!
But it's where everybody gets to believe in each other and trust in each
other. B
ut
I see that as, you know, the movements - if you will - are really kind of
running
on a parallel course right now; we're going toward the same future, the
same visi
on. We've
fed off of the women's movements more than the women's movement's fed off
the men
's
movement. But I'd like to see a day when we can reciprocate some energy
and recip
rocate some support on a much more intense level than we have in the past.
We certainly have lots of dialogue - there have been lotis a go
od
age range of men, and it's particularly important for younger men to have
a witne
ss
of an older men - just to check in with. In fact, a couple of the guys
have mento
rs
- they've actually gone out and sought mentors and said 'Hey will you be
lots of role-moe or a w
orkshop
with teenagers or, sort of... piecemeal kind of stuff. There's a certain
skirting
around what I would define as pure solidarity, where we're literally
working side
-by-side, walking down the same road and there's a lot of guys working
with a lot
of women
on a regular basis. That's a vision that I have yet to see unfold, but I
welcome
the day.
j: I agree.
(A bit later)
s: Postscript: I just wanted to add this - that one of the things we have
is a go
od
age range of men, and it's particularly important for younger men to have
a witne
ss
of an older men - just to check in with. In fact, a couple of the guys
have mento
rs
- they've actually gone out and sought mentors and said 'Hey will you be
lots of role-models in ou
r
culture, and the young people today are learning about how to be a male
from Arno
ld
Schwartzenagger. So I think it's particularly - one of the things that men
can do
to be more
responsible and accountable is to be involved as a role model for younger
generat
ions
of men - whether that's in the schools we have or whether it's an ongoing
relatio
nship with Big Brothers organization or - you know - fathers and sons and
stuff (
there's
a lot of good stuff there), but we're conscious of a lot of the older men
in our
midst as well, because that's really valuable.
I'm not sure why but there's a lot of stuff in that - there's a lot of
power in p
ositive
male models that has yet to be tapped, I think. And we certainly don't get
our sh
are
of the media, that's for sure... Even Forest Gump: that's a fine thing;
Forest Gu
mp's a good guy. He is a delightful model.
(off-tape: brief discussion of young men being drawn into/left out of
pro-feminis
t
groups)
continuing...
s: What about these young people? This is easily described and this is one
of the
positive parts of Robert Bly: He has a very good analysis for this... and
it's ty
pically:
Your eighteens, and your teenagers - forget it - I mean, you're just -
you're han
ging out, you're just trying to figure out who you are. The twenties for a
man is
trying
to fit in what you've been taught as a child, or as a teenager - you're
trying to
fit the mould. You get married - you get the wife, you get the kids (2.5
kids), y
ou
get the dog, the picket fence - you aspire to that very traditional
masculinity t
hat's
been bombarding us through whatever traditions in the media and church and
all th
at
stuff. So men spend a great deal of their time and energy in their
twenties tryin
g
to be what they think they're supposed to be.
Typically what happens in their thirties is men start looking around and
saying '
Hey,
wait a minute: I've got the wife, I've got the kids, got the job, you
know, but t
here's
something... just a little bit of a hollowness here - what's going on? I
just don
't feel quite complete!'. Now, if you happen to have the fortune of being
divorce
d
like I was it all falls out from underneath you - you don't waste any time
lookin
g
around, it just falls and you have to deal with it. But typically men,
whether th
ey've
had a traumatic life experience or not, whether or not they've lost a job
or had
a heart-attack,
whatever, typically men (well, not all men of course, because we'd have a
differe
nt
society if all would do this... but typically) - men in their thirties
start ques
tioning what it is that they're on the planet for: What is my life's role?
Some
people call it a midlife crisis.
So typically the men's movement has men 35 and older, or 30 and older,
because th
at's
the age that, for some reason, men in our society start asking questions
about wh
o
they are - who they are as lovers, who they are as workers, who they are
as profe
ssionals, who they are as men. And so, not surprisingly - and I forgot to
give th
at as
a categorization - not surprising, most of our group is 30-plus. And with
some ve
ry
delightful exceptions - we've had some fabulous men, and I wish I was half
aware
as they are at age 21, 22, 23...
(Additional postscript)
... There is actually an annual gathering of men. It's at a retreat centre
in Nor
thern
Nova Scotia called... It's called "A Gathering of Men". I've
actually n
ever gone
to it - but I hear they take 35 people, 35 men and there's a waiting list!
But I'
ve
never even been to it.
j: What do they do?
s: They gather! As MEN! (laughs)
j: (laughing) ...as opposed to hunting?
s: Yeah! I don't know what the agenda is exactly. But no, it would be a
very much
...
'sympathetic to women's issues'- kind of gathering...personal journey kind
of stu
ff
with men. I don't know if anybody in our group has gone to it. So it
clearly draw
s
on men from all across the province that aren't necessarily connected to
us. Actu
ally,
there is a men's group in the valley I forgot about - we're not really
connected
with them, but there's a group that meets... I think there's some church
connecti
ons,
because I think it's some men in a church context - interested in issues
and ques
tions about
that sort of stuff, so I think they gather. And I know the guy who
facilitates it
is a counsellor with the Men's Intervention Centre in Northern Nova
Scotia. So th
ere's
that sort of activity that's happening in the province as well.
