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<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font- This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0093_01D06BF0.A779BA00 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi Lance & All, Mar 31, 2015 The recurrent lumping & splitting of many species clusters is = perhaps an indirect consequence of the 'type specimen' concept. The = notion being that, if you just do it carefully enough, all species can = be defined in ways which are distinct from other similar species. This = is just a form of looking in the dark closet for the black cat that is = not there; and finding it. As G.G. Simpson, Prof. of Vertebrate Paleontology at the Museum of = Comparative Zoology of Harvard Univ., observed (1967, Biology and the = Public Good) "...organisms cannot be truthfully or usefully considered = in terms of types."=20 One should be prepared to accept that within some broadly defined = species there may be many different branches which are not quite = distinct and which, given the opportunity, can produce fertile = offspring. Yt, Dave Webster, Kentville =20 ----- Original Message -----=20 From: Laviolette, Lance (EXP)=20 To: naturens@chebucto.ns.ca=20 Sent: Tuesday, March 31, 2015 6:08 PM Subject: RE: [NatureNS] Hoary and Common Redpolls one species? Hi everyone, =20 Ultimately the question of "what is a species" currently comes down to = the determination of how much DNA difference is enough. The paper = doesn't say that Hoary Redpolls and Common redpolls have identical DNA, = it says that the DNA is extremely similar. Ultimately the American = Ornithologists Union, which is the body which makes the final decision = in North America, will decide if the DNA is similar enough to lump the = two or not. =20 There is certainly no harm in continuing to report the two 'forms' of = redpolls regardless of the species status. The Ipswich form of the = Savannah Sparrow is an example of this that is near and dear to the = heart of Nova Scotia birders. Who knows, in the distant future new = methods and/or decision makers may declare that the difference between = Common and Hoary Redpolls is in fact not as similar as this paper has = concluded. If that time arrives then people will wish they recorded them = separately. =20 All the best, =20 Lance =20 Lance Laviolette Glen Robertson, Ontario =20 =20 =20 From: naturens-owner@chebucto.ns.ca = [mailto:naturens-owner@chebucto.ns.ca] On Behalf Of N Robinson Sent: Tuesday, March 31, 2015 2:21 PM To: naturens@chebucto.ns.ca Subject: EXTERNAL: [NatureNS] Hoary and common redpolls one species? =20 This just in: = http://blog.allaboutbirds.org/2015/03/30/from-many-one-how-many-species-o= f-redpolls-are-there/ Nancy No virus found in this message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 2015.0.5863 / Virus Database: 4321/9424 - Release Date: = 03/31/15 ------=_NextPart_000_0093_01D06BF0.A779BA00 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable <!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.0 Transitional//EN"> <HTML xmlns=3D"http://www.w3.org/TR/REC-html40" xmlns:v =3D=20 "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:vml" xmlns:o =3D=20 "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:office" xmlns:w =3D=20 "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:word" xmlns:m =3D=20 "http://schemas.microsoft.com/office/2004/12/omml"><HEAD> <META content=3D"text/html; charset=3Diso-8859-1" = http-equiv=3DContent-Type> <META name=3DGENERATOR content=3D"MSHTML 8.00.6001.23588"> <STYLE>@font-face { font-family: Batang; } @font-face { font-family: Batang; } @font-face { font-family: Calibri; } @font-face { font-family: Tahoma; } @font-face { font-family: @Batang; } @page WordSection1 {size: 8.5in 11.0in; margin: 1.0in 1.0in 1.0in 1.0in; = } P.MsoNormal { MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt; FONT-FAMILY: "Times New Roman","serif"; FONT-SIZE: = 12pt } LI.MsoNormal { MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt; FONT-FAMILY: "Times New Roman","serif"; FONT-SIZE: = 12pt } DIV.MsoNormal { MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt; FONT-FAMILY: "Times New Roman","serif"; FONT-SIZE: = 12pt } A:link { COLOR: blue; TEXT-DECORATION: underline; mso-style-priority: 99 } SPAN.MsoHyperlink { COLOR: blue; TEXT-DECORATION: underline; mso-style-priority: 99 } A:visited { COLOR: purple; TEXT-DECORATION: underline; mso-style-priority: 99 } SPAN.MsoHyperlinkFollowed { COLOR: purple; TEXT-DECORATION: underline; mso-style-priority: 99 } SPAN.EmailStyle17 { FONT-FAMILY: "Calibri","sans-serif"; COLOR: #1f497d; mso-style-type: = personal-reply } .MsoChpDefault { FONT-FAMILY: "Calibri","sans-serif"; mso-style-type: export-only; = mso-fareast-language: EN-US } DIV.WordSection1 { page: WordSection1 } </STYLE> <!--[if gte mso 9]><xml> <o:shapedefaults v:ext=3D"edit" spidmax=3D"1026" /> </xml><![endif]--><!--[if gte mso 9]><xml> <o:shapelayout v:ext=3D"edit"> <o:idmap v:ext=3D"edit" data=3D"1" /> </o:shapelayout></xml><![endif]--></HEAD> <BODY lang=3DEN-CA link=3Dblue bgColor=3D#ffffff vLink=3Dpurple> <DIV>Hi Lance & All, = =20 = =20 Mar 31, 2015</DIV> <DIV> The recurrent lumping & splitting of = many=20 species clusters is perhaps an indirect consequence of the 'type = specimen'=20 concept. The notion being that, if you just do it carefully = enough, all=20 species can be defined in ways which are distinct from other = similar=20 species. This is just a form of looking in the dark closet for the black = cat=20 that is not there; and finding it.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> As G.G. Simpson, Prof. of Vertebrate = Paleontology at the=20 Museum of Comparative Zoology of Harvard Univ., observed (1967, = Biology and=20 the Public Good) "...organisms cannot be truthfully or usefully = considered in=20 terms of types." </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> One should be prepared to accept that within = some=20 broadly defined species there may be many different branches which = are not=20 quite distinct and which, given the opportunity, can produce fertile=20 offspring.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Yt, Dave Webster, Kentville</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <BLOCKQUOTE=20 style=3D"BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; = PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px"=