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n ab --001a11c381826b397504e18e092d Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Hello Nancy, Barn Swallows nests are open at the top and a horizontal surface upon which to place the nest is required. They will nest outside, but they need a horizontal surface upon which to do so and one which is sufficiently protected from the elements given the open-top design of their nests. I suspect that most eaves do not meet both these requirements. Both Cliff and Barn Swallows will use bridges. I have noted that Cliff Swallows usually nest on the "sides" of bridges while Barn Swallows nest "underneath". I suspect Barn Swallows will not nest underneath the eaves of your friends' barn unless a sufficiently protected horizontal surface is available to them. Cheers, Ron On Mon, Jul 15, 2013 at 10:43 AM, nancy dowd <nancypdowd@gmail.com> wrote: > Hi Paul and all > > Is it the usual for Barn Swallows to not nest anywhere outside but > rather prefer inside spaces exclusively (barn, shed or garage or...)? > I have nature-loving friends who have rebuilt their barns and made > sure no swallows can get in and make a mess of their tractors etc. > They feel the Barn Swallows will nest outside under the eaves instead. > Maybe they are wrong? > > I have to agree with George Forsyth. Watching Swallows of any species > swoop over open land is an aerial show worth seeing. > > Nancy > > On Mon, Jul 15, 2013 at 10:15 AM, Paul MacDonald <paulrita2001@yahoo.com> > wrote: > > > > Very interesting George > > One thing that cattle attracted was flies and mosquitos > > and the barn swallows followed the cattle closely. > > I grew up on a small mixed farm with 50 head of cattle > > and always lots of barn swallows. The swallows would light on > > the cattle's back in the field. In fact my Grandfather when he was > > working in the field would have them light on his shoulders. > > Of course there was so many added each year some would > > have to take up residence at other peoples farms or buildings. > > cattle or no cattle. > > There was two species Cliff Swallows ( Hirundo pyrrhonota ) which were > > called Eave Swallows and Barn Swallows ( Hirundo rustica ). > > Eave swallows nest outside under the eaves. My Grandfather had put > > up a board under the eave of the buildings near the well where they > > nested. English Sparrows and Starlings done a bad job on them. > > Especially the Sparrows and the Eave swallows soon disapppeared > > when they arrived. The Barn swallows held on until the cattle left. > > We also had a large colony of Bank Swallows ( Riparia riparia ) in > > the front field. They nested in the south facing bank which was about 15 > m > > in height. It worked good - we could only cultivate to about 5 m > > from the edge the bank so that ground was undisturbed and left > > to the swallows. Horses had more fear of falling over the edge than did > > tractors! > > The arrival of the shunks finished that off. They dug out all the nests > > as well as destroying all the tern eggs on the beach. We carried > > out an active control program on the shunks but they multiplied faster > > than my Grandfather could dispense them . Taught me a lot about > > predator control if nothing else. His favorite method was to put > > a batch of eggs about 30 m from where he could sit. He would > > do that for several evening in a row. One evening he would wait and > > when the feast was on he would help the celebration > > with both barrels of the 12 ga. Much like Canada Day now. > > Effective in the short tern but no long term effect. > > Anyway we miss the swallows > > Paul > > > > > > > > From: "g4syth@staff.ednet.ns.ca" <g4syth@staff.ednee them t.ns.ca> > > To: naturens@chebucto.ns.ca; James W. Wolford <jimwolford@eastlink.ca> > > Cc: NatureNS <naturens@chebucto.ns.ca>; Ally (Allison) Manthorne > > <amanthorne@bsc-eoc.org>; Mark F Elderkin <elderkmf@gov.ns.ca>; Sherman > > Boates <boatesjs@gov.ns.ca> > > Sent: Monday, July 15, 2013 9:26:59 AM > > Subject: Re: [NatureNS] re ch. swifts vs. swallows et al. -- was Barn > > Swallows and Chimney Swifts > > > > Hi all, > > > > This is all very interesting, as both barn swallows and chimney swifts > > are less numerous than most of us middle and older aged naturalists > > remember from our past. > > > > When I grew up in Greenwich, Kings County NS there were barn swallows > > nesting in most of the barns in our community. From the west moving > > east: Murray Forsythe's barn had many nests, there were cattle but > > this barn is now gone; Richard Forsyth's ( now Harold's ) there were > > no cattle but swallows in many of the barns, they disappeared for a > > number of years but have returned in smaller numbers; Lewis Legge, now > > Stephen Legge, there were nests in all levels of the barn, cattle for > > only a few years that I remember, no nests presently; My dad's, George > > Forsyth's barn had barn swallows as I grew up, nests on three levels > > in some years, we had no livestock, there haven't been nests for > > twenty years; Lorna Huston, now Ivan Rafuse, a small modern garage, > > had swallow nests, never had livestock, the birds entered under the > > roll up door that was left open about four inches, these birds have > > gone; Herb Johnson's barn had no livestock, but barn swallow nests on > > two levels, this barn is now gone; Rhodes Hennigar's (now Doug), there > > has been no livestock for many years, but there is a continuous > > healthy population of barn swallows nesting on three levels of an old > > barn on the property, there is a source on mud in an area where they > > wash vegetables and fill farm machinery with water. > > > > In all of these cases the barns or garage are of wood construction, > > they have openings that are accessible to the birds, even open > > doorways, and there is a source of mud. The fact that livestock are > > present I don't think is as important, livestock will almost guarantee > > that there is mud, but if there is some other reason that mud is > > available as at Doug Hennigar's they will still be attracted. > > > > About twenty years ago I remember poking my head into an abandoned > > shed on the lower end of the Stewart Mtn Rd, in Lower Blomidon, there > > was a barn swallow nest in this building and the adults swooped and > > chattered as I looked inside the building. This was not a building > > being used for any purpose by people, and it had not been used for > > many years, but this pair of swallows found it attractive! > > > > I'm sure that the combination of conditions that attract barn swallows > > to nest is known to barn swallows and might never be understood by all > > of us. I also think that just as some of us find some areas attractive > > for our living, and might not be attracted to other places, individual > > barn swallow pairs might nest in conditions that are not necessarily > > "typical". As important as nesting > > is to barn swallow populations their time in Nova Scotia represents > > only one quarter of the year, there must be many other impacts on > > their population that are not related to nesting. > > > > In any case there is a relaxing pleasure in seeing barn swallows > > swooping and coursing a lawn, hay field or pasture on a sunny summer > > day, we should all be jealous of the freedom as they reel, in seeming > > abandon, countering gravity as we are bound to our lawn chairs! > > > > > > George E. Forsyth > > > > > > Quoting "James W. Wolford" <jimwolford@eastlink.ca>: > > > >> Regarding the chimney swift, the history is a bit complex and of > >> course the mathematics of this is/are unknown. Remember that before > >> North Americans/Europeans built chimneys to which the swifts could > >> adapt (which of course they did in spades), the main habitat for the > >> swifts in North America and probably also in South America (wintering > >> areas) was cavities in trunks and large branches of big trees that > >> were old enough to have such fungus-or-other-related cavities. > >> Needless to say, such habitats are long gone, and one wonders if > >> humans and nature are capable of ever producing such again -- another > >> question might be whether the swifts would ever evolve back to natural > >> cavities? (Hopefully, artificial cavities/towers might eventually > >> replace the lost habitats of old hollow trees and chimneys etc. with > >> large enough openings for the entrance & exit of swifts. > >> > >> Another point to bring up is the foods of aerial insectivores like > >> swifts, swallows, nighthawks, flycatchers, and ? and whether the > >> likely problem with those insects might be amenable to any kind of > >> corrective actions. We probably will never be able to show cause and > >> effect for the declines of these birds. Another thing that has > >> entered my mind is that agricultural chemicals are quite possibly > >> parts of the problems, and they just might be affecting all sorts of > >> kinds of biodiversity, other than flying insects. > >> > >> Cheers for now from Jim in Wolfville. > >> > >> Begin forwarded message: > >> > >>> From: Fritz McEvoy <fritzmcevoy@hotmail.com> > >>> Date: July 11, 2013 3:18:42 PM ADT > >>> To: NS NATURE <naturens@chebucto.ns.ca> > >>> Subject: RE: [NatureNS] Barn Swallows and Chimney Swifts > >>> Reply-To: naturens@chebucto.ns.ca > >>> > >>> Hi Rob and All, > >>> I stand to be corrected here, but my understanding is that it > >>> was not only the old barns that were required but that farming; > >>> particularly the keeping of livestock; was also essential. The mud > >>> and manure were used to build the nests and the insects the > >>> animals attracted were a main food source. We lost our local > >>> Barn Swallows shortly after the owners of the barns the swallows > >>> used for nests, which are still here BTW, got rid of the last of > >>> their cows. All the best. > >>> Fritz McEvoy > >>> Sunrise Valley, CB (near > >>> Dingwall) > >>> > >>> > >>> Date: Thu, 11 Jul 2013 09:25:49 -0700 > >>> From: rrtwoods@yahoo.com > >>> Subject: [NatureNS] Barn Swallows and Chimney Swifts > >>> To: naturens@chebucto.ns.ca > >>> > >>> Not to take away from the rapid decline that these species and > >>> others are experiencing, I have wondered did these two species > >>> first benefit from mankind as the are both strongly associated with > >>> man made objects. Were their numbers from the peaks 30-40 years > >>> ago actually inflated due to man made structures being available. > >>> Prior to the building of the large wooden barns across north > >>> america what would have been the population of Barn Swallows. > >>> Suitable nesting habitat would have been more limited and under > >>> much more competition or predation. > >>> > >>> Todays modern barns are made of metal which are almost impossible > >>> to attach nest to and are much more BIO secure than the wooden > >>> barns of our forefathers. The old brick chimneys that once > >>> abandoned, provided excellent habitat for the swifts are now > >>> falling in disrepair or are destroyed in site clean up. Both of > >>> these structures did not exist before the industrial age and are > >>> becoming limited now thus maybe populations of these species are > >>> actually returning to more normal levels. > >>> > >>> Owner of a wooden barn with 6 barn swallow nests > >>> > >>> Rob Woods > >>> Georgefield NS > >>> > >>> > >>> > > > > > > > > > > > -- Ronald G. Arsenault Moncton, N.B. --001a11c381826b397504e18e092d Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hello Nancy,<div><br></div><div>Barn Swallows nests are open at the top and= a horizontal surface upon which to place the nest is required. They will n= est outside, but they need a horizontal surface upon which to do so and one= which is sufficiently protected from the elements given the open-top desig= n of their nests. I suspect that most eaves do not meet both these requirem= ents.</div> <div><br></div><div>Both Cliff and Barn Swallows will use bridges. =A0 I ha= ve noted that Cliff Swallows usually nest on the "sides" of bridg= es while Barn Swallows nest "underneath".</div><div><br></div><di= v> I suspect Barn Swallows will not nest underneath the eaves of your friends&= #39; barn unless a sufficiently protected horizontal surface is available t= o them.</div><div><br></div><div>Cheers,</div><div><br></div><div>Ron<br> <br><div class=3D"gmail_quote">On Mon, Jul 15, 2013 at 10:43 AM, nancy dowd= <span dir=3D"ltr"><<a href=3D"mailto:nancypdowd@gmail.com" target=3D"_b= lank">nancypdowd@gmail.com</a>></span> wrote:<br><blockquote class=3D"gm= ail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-le= ft:1ex"> Hi Paul and all<br> <br> Is it the usual for Barn Swallows to not nest anywhere outside but<br> rather prefer inside spaces exclusively (barn, shed or garage or...)?<br> I have nature-loving friends who have rebuilt their barns and made<br> sure no swallows can get in and make a mess of their tractors etc.<br> They feel the Barn Swallows will nest outside under the eaves instead.<br> Maybe they are wrong?<br> <br> I have to agree with George Forsyth. Watching Swallows of any species<br> swoop over open land is an aerial show worth seeing.<br> <span class=3D"HOEnZb"><font color=3D"#888888"><br> Nancy<br> </font></span><div class=3D"HOEnZb"><div class=3D"h5"><br> On Mon, Jul 15, 2013 at 10:15 AM, Paul MacDonald <<a href=3D"mailto:paul= rita2001@yahoo.com">paulrita2001@yahoo.com</a>> wrote:<br> ><br> > Very interesting George<br> > One thing that cattle attracted was flies and mosquitos<br> > and the barn swallows followed the cattle closely.<br> > I grew up on a small mixed farm with 50 head of cattle<br> > and always lots of barn swallows. The swallows would light on<br> > the cattle's back in the field. In fact my Grandfather when he was= <br> > working in the field would have them light on his shoulders.<br> > Of course there was so many added each year some would<br> > have to take up residence at other peoples farms or buildings.<br> > cattle or no cattle.<br> > There was two species Cliff Swallows ( Hirundo pyrrhonota ) which were= <br> > called Eave Swallows and Barn Swallows ( Hirundo rustica ).<br> > Eave swallows nest outside under the eaves. My Grandfather had put<br> > up a board under the eave of the buildings =A0near the well where they= <br> > nested. English Sparrows and Starlings done a bad job on them.<br> > Especially the Sparrows and the Eave swallows soon disapppeared<br> > when they arrived. The Barn swallows held on until the cattle left.<br= > > We also had a large colony of Bank Swallows ( Riparia riparia ) in<br> > the front field. They nested in the south facing bank which was about = 15 m<br> > in height. =A0It worked good - we could only cultivate to about 5 m<br= > > from the edge the bank so that ground was undisturbed and left<br> > to the swallows. Horses had more fear of falling over the edge than di= d<br> > tractors!<br> > The arrival of the shunks finished that off. They dug out all the nest= s<br> > as well as =A0destroying all the tern eggs on the beach. We carried<br= > > out an active control program on the shunks but they multiplied faster= <br> > than my Grandfather could dispense them . Taught me a lot about<br> > predator control if nothing else. His favorite method was to put<br> > a batch of eggs about 30 m from where he could sit. He would<br> > do that for several evening in a row. One evening he would wait and<br= > > when the feast was on he would help the celebration<br> > with both barrels of the 12 ga. Much like Canada Day now.<br> > Effective in the short tern but no long term effect.<br> > Anyway we miss the swallows<br> > Paul<br> ><br> ><br> ><br> > From: "<a href=3D"mailto:g4syth@staff.ednet.ns.ca">g4syth@staff.e= dnet.ns.ca</a>" <g4syth@staff.ednee them <a href=3D"http://t.ns.ca"= target=3D"_blank">t.ns.ca</a>><br> > To: <a href=3D"mailto:naturens@chebucto.ns.ca">naturens@chebucto.ns.ca= </a>; James W. Wolford <<a href=3D"mailto:jimwolford@eastlink.ca">jimwol= ford@eastlink.ca</a>><br> > Cc: NatureNS <<a href=3D"mailto:naturens@chebucto.ns.ca">naturens@c= hebucto.ns.ca</a>>; Ally (Allison) Manthorne<br> > <<a href=3D"mailto:amanthorne@bsc-eoc.org">amanthorne@bsc-eoc.org</= a>>; Mark F Elderkin <<a href=3D"mailto:elderkmf@gov.ns.ca">elderkmf@= gov.ns.ca</a>>; Sherman<br> > Boates <<a href=3D"mailto:boatesjs@gov.ns.ca">boatesjs@gov.ns.ca</a= >><br> > Sent: Monday, July 15, 2013 9:26:59 AM<br> > Subject: Re: [NatureNS] re ch. swifts vs. swallows et al. -- was Barn<= br> > Swallows and Chimney Swifts<br> ><br> > Hi all,<br> ><br> > This is all very interesting, as both barn swallows and chimney swifts= <br> > are less numerous than most of us middle and older aged naturalists<br= > > remember from our past.<br> ><br> > When I grew up in Greenwich, Kings County NS there were barn swallows<= br> > nesting in most of the barns in our community. From the west moving<br= > > east: Murray Forsythe's barn had many nests, there were cattle but= <br> > this barn is now gone; Richard Forsyth's ( now Harold's ) ther= e were<br> > no cattle but swallows in many of the barns, they disappeared for a<br= > > number of years but have returned in smaller numbers; Lewis Legge, now= <br> > Stephen Legge, there were nests in all levels of the barn, cattle for<= br> > only a few years that I remember, no nests presently; My dad's, Ge= orge<br> > Forsyth's barn had barn swallows as I grew up, nests on three leve= ls<br> > in some years, we had no livestock, there haven't been nests for<b= r> > twenty years; Lorna Huston, now Ivan Rafuse, a small modern garage,<br= > > had swallow nests, never had livestock, the birds entered under the<br= > > roll up door that was left open about four inches, these birds have<br= > > gone; Herb Johnson's barn had no livestock, but barn swallow nests= on<br> > two levels, this barn is now gone; Rhodes Hennigar's (now Doug), t= here<br> > has been no livestock for many years, but there is a continuous<br> > healthy population of barn swallows nesting on three levels of an old<= br> > barn on the property, there is a source on mud in an area where they<b= r> > wash vegetables and fill farm machinery with water.<br> ><br> > In all of these cases the barns or garage are of wood construction,<br= > > they have openings that are accessible to the birds, even open<br> > doorways, and there is a source of mud. The fact that livestock are<br= > > present I don't think is as important, livestock will almost guara= ntee<br> > that there is mud, but if there is some other reason that mud is<br> > available as at Doug Hennigar's they will still be attracted.<br> ><br> > About twenty years ago I remember poking my head into an abandoned<br> > shed on the lower end of the Stewart Mtn Rd, in Lower Blomidon, there<= br> > was a barn swallow nest in this building and the adults swooped and<br= > > chattered as I looked inside the building. This was not a building<br> > being used for any purpose by people, and it had not been used for<br> > many years, but this pair of swallows found it attractive!<br> ><br> > I'm sure that the combination of conditions that attract barn swal= lows<br> > to nest is known to barn swallows and might never be understood by all= <br> > of us. I also think that just as some of us find some areas attractive= <br> > for our living, and might not be attracted to other places, individual= <br> > barn swallow pairs might nest in conditions that are not necessarily<b= r> > "typical". As important as nesting<br> > is to barn swallow populations their time in Nova Scotia represents<br= > > only one quarter of the year, there must be many other impacts on<br> > their population that are not related to nesting.<br> ><br> > In any case there is a relaxing pleasure in seeing barn swallows<br> > swooping and coursing a lawn, hay field or pasture on a sunny summer<b= r> > day, we should all be jealous of the freedom as they reel, in seeming<= br> > abandon, countering gravity as we are bound to our lawn chairs!<br> ><br> ><br> > George E. Forsyth<br> ><br> ><br> > Quoting "James W. Wolford" <<a href=3D"mailto:jimwolford@= eastlink.ca">jimwolford@eastlink.ca</a>>:<br> ><br> >> Regarding the chimney swift, the history is a bit complex and of<b= r> >> course the mathematics of this is/are unknown. =A0Remember that be= fore<br> >> North Americans/Europeans built chimneys to which the swifts could= <br> >> adapt (which of course they did in spades), the main habitat for t= he<br> >> swifts in North America and probably also in South America (winter= ing<br> >> areas) was cavities in trunks and large branches of big trees that= <br> >> were old enough to have such fungus-or-other-related cavities.<br> >> Needless to say, such habitats are long gone, and one wonders if<b= r> >> humans and nature are capable of ever producing such again -- anot= her<br> >> question might be whether the swifts would ever evolve back to =A0= natural<br> >> cavities? =A0(Hopefully, artificial cavities/towers might =A0event= ually<br> >> replace the lost habitats of old hollow trees and chimneys =A0etc.= with<br> >> large enough openings for the entrance & exit of swifts.<br> >><br> >> Another point to bring up is the foods of aerial insectivores like= <br> >> swifts, swallows, nighthawks, flycatchers, and ? and whether the<b= r> >> likely problem with those insects might be amenable to any kind of= <br> >> corrective actions. =A0We probably will never be able to show caus= e and<br> >> effect for the declines of these birds. =A0Another thing that has<= br> >> entered my mind is that agricultural chemicals are quite possibly<= br> >> parts of the problems, and they just might be affecting all sorts = of<br> >> kinds of biodiversity, other than flying insects.<br> >><br> >> Cheers for now from Jim in Wolfville.<br> >><br> >> Begin forwarded message:<br> >><br> >>> From: Fritz McEvoy <<a href=3D"mailto:fritzmcevoy@hotmail.c= om">fritzmcevoy@hotmail.com</a>><br> >>> Date: July 11, 2013 3:18:42 PM ADT<br> >>> To: NS NATURE <<a href=3D"mailto:naturens@chebucto.ns.ca">n= aturens@chebucto.ns.ca</a>><br> >>> Subject: RE: [NatureNS] Barn Swallows and Chimney Swifts<br> >>> Reply-To: <a href=3D"mailto:naturens@chebucto.ns.ca">naturens@= chebucto.ns.ca</a><br> >>><br> >>> Hi Rob and All,<br> >>> =A0 =A0I stand to be corrected here, but my understanding is t= hat it<br> >>> was not only the old barns that were required but that farming= ;<br> >>> particularly the keeping of livestock; was also essential. The= mud<br> >>> =A0and manure were used to build the nests and the insects the= <br> >>> animals =A0attracted were a main food source. =A0We lost our l= ocal<br> >>> Barn =A0Swallows =A0shortly after the owners of the barns the = swallows<br> >>> used =A0for nests, =A0which are still here BTW, got rid of the= last of<br> >>> their =A0cows. All =A0the best.<br> >>> =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 = =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0Fritz McEvoy<br> >>> =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 = =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0Sunrise Valley, CB (near<br> >>> Dingwall)<br> >>><br> >>><br> >>> Date: Thu, 11 Jul 2013 09:25:49 -0700<br> >>> From: <a href=3D"mailto:rrtwoods@yahoo.com">rrtwoods@yahoo.com= </a><br> >>> Subject: [NatureNS] Barn Swallows and Chimney Swifts<br> >>> To: <a href=3D"mailto:naturens@chebucto.ns.ca">naturens@chebuc= to.ns.ca</a><br> >>><br> >>> Not to take away from the rapid decline that these species and= <br> >>> others are experiencing, I have wondered did these two species= <br> >>> first benefit from mankind as the are both strongly associated= with<br> >>> =A0man made objects. Were their numbers from the peaks 30-40 y= ears<br> >>> ago =A0actually inflated due to man made structures being avai= lable.<br> >>> Prior =A0to the building of the large wooden barns across nort= h<br> >>> america what =A0would have been the population of Barn Swallow= s.<br> >>> Suitable nesting =A0habitat would have been more limited and u= nder<br> >>> much more =A0competition or predation.<br> >>><br> >>> Todays modern barns are made of metal which are almost impossi= ble<br> >>> to attach nest to and are much more BIO secure than the wooden= <br> >>> barns of our forefathers. =A0The old brick chimneys that once<= br> >>> abandoned, provided excellent habitat for the swifts are now<b= r> >>> falling in disrepair or are destroyed in site clean up. Both o= f<br> >>> these structures did not exist before the industrial age and a= re<br> >>> becoming limited now thus maybe populations of these species a= re<br> >>> actually returning to more normal levels.<br> >>><br> >>> Owner of a wooden barn with 6 barn swallow nests<br> >>><br> >>> Rob Woods<br> >>> Georgefield NS<br> >>><br> >>><br> >>><br> ><br> ><br> ><br> ><br> ><br> </div></div></blockquote></div><br><br clear=3D"all"><div><br></div>-- <br>= Ronald G. Arsenault<br>Moncton, N.B. </div> --001a11c381826b397504e18e092d--
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