[NatureNS] Cougars and Ivory-billed woodpeckers

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From: "Andy Moir/Christine Callaghan" <slickdog1@gmail.com>
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Date: Wed, 27 Jul 2011 22:49:53 -0300
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as a methodology is that it
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What you say is exactly why the whole of the scientific community =
suffers a credibility problem.  You can't have it both ways.  You can't =
argue the objectivity of science, and then say some scientists aren't =
objective and therefore will eventually be outed.  The fact is the =
decisions they are being allowed to make in the name of science are =
going unchallenged because people such as lobstermen and others don't =
have the budgets to do the studies that should be done.  They claim =
science proves no harm is being done...and then harm is done.  It's not =
an academic discussion.  It's real life, and we have to live with the =
consequences.
I certainly haven't thrown out any babies with any bathwater...but I'd =
certainly recommend that the babies grow up.
Andy
  ----- Original Message -----=20
  From: Christopher Majka=20
  To: naturens@chebucto.ns.ca=20
  Sent: Wednesday, July 27, 2011 10:27 PM
  Subject: Re: [NatureNS] Cougars and Ivory-billed woodpeckers


  Hi Andy,


  Science is both a body of knowledge and a methodology. It's =
practitioners are as varied as any other group of people - they are all =
humans. Some are good, others bad, some middle of the road, others =
mediocre. Others are unjustifiably beaten into submission by political =
masters who tell them what to do and say in the name of political =
objectives. As a human activity, it is liable to human mistakes and =
foibles.


  The strength of science as a methodology is that it relies on =
empirical evidence, is open to scrutiny by all, and is self-correcting. =
So if someone from DFO (scientist or bureaucrat) makes a claim, and it =
is demonstrably a pile of crap, science as a discipline will eventually =
bear this out and send it packing.


  A bad apple doesn't destroy the whole barrel. The "scientific =
community" doesn't need to clean up its act if some bureaucrat =
(scientist or not) becomes a yes man for a political agenda. David =
Sibley and John Fitzpatrick (the ornithologists referred to below) are =
no more responsible for what someone in Shelburne said than you or the =
lobstermen of NB are responsible for the irresponsible conduct of =
Russian factory ships, Japanese whalers, or the plundering of North =
Atlantic cod stocks by Spanish and Portuguese fishing fleets. It's not =
even apples and oranges - its golf balls and dirigibles. ;->


  It's science that created the knowledge to build the computers that =
allow us to exchange these views on the Internet; and geographers and =
hydrographers who mapped the Bay of Fundy, and elucidated the biology of =
lobsters and cod and ivory-billed woodpeckers, and cougars - amongst =
many other things. Throwing the baby out with the bath-water doesn't get =
anyone very far.


  Cheers!


  Chris


  On 27-Jul-11, at 9:42 PM, Andy Moir/Christine Callaghan wrote:



      I am afraid I don't hold the scientific community in the same high =
esteem that Richard does. In fact, I believe segments of the scientific =
community have a growing credibility problem.=20
       In our efforts on some environmental issues here on the Neck and =
Islands, we have come up against all sorts of scientists who interpret =
"facts" to suit the wishes of their political or business masters.=20
      A recent example came from DFO scientists who told a crowd in =
Shelburne that there is no scientific evidence to show that open net =
salmon farms do damage to the local lobster population.  They made it =
sound as if they had actually studied the issue.  But of course, they =
haven't...they have quite intentionally not studied it, presumably for =
fear of what they might find.  When government scientists make this sort =
of claim, I ask myself, where is the test of a "high degree of proof" =
that Richard refers to in his note.=20
      The people who have studied it, the lobstermen of NB, who have 20 =
years or more experience of seeing their livelihood destroyed by open =
net fish farms, don't have PhD after their names, so their observations =
are dismissed, often by scientists.  In many cases, I'll take local =
knowledge over the political/scientific agenda of those who are paid to =
provide advice that the politicians want to hear.  All too often, the =
science has been tainted to reflect a reality that has more to do with =
creating jobs and making money than accurately or fairly assessing the =
environmental impact of some of these projects.
    So I think the scientific community has a long way to go to clean up =
its act before it can rightly claim any holier than thou attitude about =
who is right, and who is wrong on these issues, or, if fact, what the =
criteria should be for determining what is the truth.=20
    Andy in Freeport


      ----- Original Message -----
      From: Richard Stern
      To: NatureNS
      Sent: Wednesday, July 27, 2011 7:48 PM
      Subject: [NatureNS] Cougars and Ivory-billed woodpeckers


      Hi,

      I'll weigh in on the interesting thread about E.cougars, elephants =
etc., mainly because I enjoy this kind of debate.  Wild cougars (or =
Eskimo curlews, or Coelocanths etc.) may or may not be present in NS, =
and people can believe whatever they want. But I agree with Ulli etc. =
that convincing the naturalist and scientific community would require a =
pretty high degree of proof - preferably independently analysed and =
corroborated photos, videos, DNA etc., and then proof beyond a =
reasonable doubt that any photos aren't faked in some way, and that the =
creature wasn't a zoo or collection escape, like Paul's elephant.=20

      I would urge interested parties, and for that matter all birders =
and naturalists interested in reporting sightings,  to read David =
Sibley's refutation of the "proof" that the Ivory-billed woodpecker =
still lives in Arkansas, for a great example of what to look for and how =
to go about it , and the sort of analysis that should convince skeptics =
on rare bird committees etc.! =
(http://www.sciencemag.org/content/311/5767/1555.1.full), followed by =
John Fitzpatrick's response =
(http://www.sciencemag.org/content/311/5767/1555.2.full). These are 2 =
highly respected well-known birders with multiple books and publications =
to their name, who give apparently convincing evidence to prove opposite =
"facts", neither of which has subsequently been corroborated, although =
apparently Fitzpatrick has backed down somewhat and the Cornell team =
have stopped searching till more definitive evidence is found.

      Keep debating and looking!

      Richard