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Index of Subjects --Apple-Mail-10--807089526 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=WINDOWS-1252; format=flowed; delsp=yes Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable In F. Lynne Bachleda, Dangerous Wildlife of the Southeast, page 46, =20 says "It is important to note that, according to [Archie] Carr and =20 reptile expert Ross Allen, the damage done to the tail vertebrae from =20= lifting large alligator snapper captives by the tail =97 who can weigh =20= 150 pounds or more =97 eventually kills them. This also applies to =20 heavier common snappers." Archie Carr's Handbook of Turtles, Turtles of the United States, =20 Canada, and Baja California has, as I recall, more detail on this, and =20= pictures of the correct technique for carrying large snappers. I =20 don't have a copy of that book with me now, so I can't give an exact =20 page reference. I also can offer my own observations. In earlier days, before I knew =20= better, I once lifted a large snapper (about 15 pounds) by the tail, =20 and felt a sickening feeling as the ligaments associated with the =20 caudal vertebrae tore. When I dissected that specimen, I could =20 clearly see the trauma from the injury I had caused. So, in my mind, =20= there is no doubt about the issue: large turtles should not be carried =20= by the tail. This makes sense, for who would expect the tail to be =20 adapted for such rigours? What would happen to a human, if lifted by =20= the end of a single finger? The joints would be damaged, it would be =20= painful, and (at the very least) you would feel like biting your =20 tormentor. On 24 Jun 2009, at 2:53 PM, Christopher Majka wrote: > Hi Hans, > > The page that the Wikipedia references: > > = http://blogs.thatpetplace.com/thatreptileblog/2008/06/24/handling-snapping= -turtles-chelydra-serpentina-and-other-large-turtles > > Is signed "Frank" and has no reference to a full name or biography. =20= > Irrespective of this, my point does not pertain to whether we only =20 > know him as "Frank" or "Frank Indiviglio" with a Masters degree in =20 > biology; unsupported assertions, are just that - unsupported =20 > assertions. Is there any documentation that such handling has ever =20 > resulted in "severe injuries to the spine and internal organs"? =20 > Maybe there is: but if so, no source I've looked at seems to offer =20 > any facts, just unsupported assertions. > > People with varying degrees of expertise (or lack thereof) can =20 > speculate or state; but that's not the same as having any evidence =20 > that supports the case one way or the other. > > Cheers! > > Chris > > On 24-Jun-09, at 2:41 PM, Hans Toom wrote: > >> Hi Christopher, >> >> In reference to "Frank" and his blog, here's his background, = http://blogs.thatpetplace.com/thatreptileblog/about/=20 >> He has a masters in Biology and is a consultant for several =20 >> zoos. To abruptly refer to his wikipedia submission as "Written by =20= >> someone called Frank", attempts to make his opinion anonymous and =20 >> of no value. >> >> Hans >> >> >> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Christopher Majka" = <c.majka@ns.sympatico.ca=20 >> > >> To: <naturens@chebucto.ns.ca> >> Sent: Wednesday, June 24, 2009 1:58 PM >> Subject: Re: [NatureNS] Handling Snapping Turtles >> >> >>> Hi Hans, >>> >>> On 24-Jun-09, at 1:15 PM, Hans Toom wrote: >>> >>>> There tends to be more support for Peter Hope's position on not =20= >>>> handling the animal by the tail, than not. >>>> >>>> =46rom wikipedia http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/=20 >>>> Common_Snapping_Turtle , perhaps not a scientific resource but =20 >>>> usually fairly reliable. "It is a common misconception that =20 >>>> Common snappers may be safely picked up by its tail, with no =20 >>>> harm to the animal; in fact, this has a high chance of injuring =20= >>>> the turtle, especially the tail itself and the vertebral column". >>> >>> This is part of the "lore" that I was referring to. The Wikipedia =20= >>> is not a scientific publication as you point out, and the entries =20= >>> in it vary a great deal in reliability depending on who has =20 >>> written and/or contributed to them (which one can't determine), =20 >>> so it is effectively an anonymous source. >>> >>> In the case of this entry on snapping turtles, you'll notice that =20= >>> the cited source for the statement above is a blog: >>> >>> = http://blogs.thatpetplace.com/thatreptileblog/2008/06/24/handling-snapping= -turtles-chelydra-serpentina-and-other-large-turtles/ >>> >>> Written by someone called "Frank" that, in turn, says: >>> >>> "Do not lift snappers by their tails, as is often done =96 this =20 >>> will cause severe injuries to the spine and internal organs." >>> >>> Which again is an unsupported assertion by an almost anonymous =20 >>> source. This may or may not be true, but I've tracked enough =20 >>> "urban legends" that circulate without substantiation on the =20 >>> Internet to want to have a source in fact before I necessarily =20 >>> believe it. ;-> Thus far, I haven't found it and John Gilhen, an =20= >>> expert herpetologist, says that it is not true. >>> >>> Cheers! >>> >>> Chris >>> >>> Christopher Majka - Atlantic Canada Coleoptera >>> http://www.chebucto.ns.ca/Environment/NHR/atlantic_coleoptera.html >>> c.majka@ns.sympatico.ca >>> >>> >> > --Apple-Mail-10--807089526 Content-Type: text/html; charset=WINDOWS-1252 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable <html><body style=3D"word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; = -webkit-line-break: after-white-space; "><font class=3D"Apple-style-span" = size=3D"5"><span class=3D"Apple-style-span" style=3D"font-size: = 18px;">In </span></font><span class=3D"Apple-style-span" = style=3D"white-space: nowrap; "><font class=3D"Apple-style-span" = size=3D"5"><span class=3D"Apple-style-span" style=3D"font-size: = 18px;">F. Lynne Bachleda, </span></font></span><span = class=3D"Apple-style-span" style=3D"white-space: nowrap; "><i><font = class=3D"Apple-style-span" size=3D"5"><span class=3D"Apple-style-span" = style=3D"font-size: 18px;">D</span></font></i></span><i><font = class=3D"Apple-style-span" size=3D"5"><span class=3D"Apple-style-span" = style=3D"font-size: 18px;">angerous Wildlife of the = Southeast</span></font></i><font class=3D"Apple-style-span" = size=3D"5"><span class=3D"Apple-style-span" style=3D"font-size: 18px;">, = page 46, says "It is important to note that, according to [Archie] Carr = and reptile expert Ross Allen, the damage done to the tail vertebrae = from lifting large alligator snapper captives by the tail =97 who can = weigh 150 pounds or more =97 eventually kills them. This also = applies to heavier common snappers."</span></font><div><font = class=3D"Apple-style-span" size=3D"5"><span class=3D"Apple-style-span" = style=3D"font-size: 18px;"><br></span></font></div><div><font = class=3D"Apple-style-span" size=3D"5"><span class=3D"Apple-style-span" = style=3D"font-size: 18px;">Archie Carr's <i>Handbook of Turtles, Turtles = of the United States, Canada, and Baja California</i> has, as I recall, = more detail on this, and pictures of the correct technique for carrying = large snappers. I don't have a copy of that book with me now, so I = can't give an exact page reference.</span></font></div><div><font = class=3D"Apple-style-span" size=3D"5"><span class=3D"Apple-style-span" = style=3D"font-size: 18px;"><br></span></font></div><div><font = class=3D"Apple-style-span" size=3D"5"><span class=3D"Apple-style-span" = style=3D"font-size: 18px;">I also can offer my own observations. = In earlier days, before I knew better, I once lifted a large = snapper (about 15 pounds) by the tail, and felt a sickening feeling as = the ligaments associated with the caudal vertebrae tore. When I = dissected that specimen, I could clearly see the trauma from the injury = I had caused. So, in my mind, there is no doubt about the issue: = large turtles should not be carried by the tail. This makes sense, = for who would expect the tail to be adapted for such rigours? What = would happen to a human, if lifted by the end of a single finger? = The joints would be damaged, it would be painful, and (at the very = least) you would feel like biting your = tormentor.<br></span></font><div><br><div><div>On 24 Jun 2009, at 2:53 = PM, Christopher Majka wrote:</div><br = class=3D"Apple-interchange-newline"><blockquote type=3D"cite"><div>Hi = Hans,<br><br>The page that the Wikipedia references:<br><br><a = href=3D"http://blogs.thatpetplace.com/thatreptileblog/2008/06/24/handling-= snapping-turtles-chelydra-serpentina-and-other-large-turtles">http://blogs= .thatpetplace.com/thatreptileblog/2008/06/24/handling-snapping-turtles-che= lydra-serpentina-and-other-large-turtles</a><br><br>Is signed "Frank" = and has no reference to a full name or biography. Irrespective of this, = my point does not pertain to whether we only know him as "Frank" or = "Frank Indiviglio" with a Masters degree in biology; unsupported = assertions, are just that - unsupported assertions. Is there any = documentation that such handling has ever resulted in "severe injuries = to the spine and internal organs"? Maybe there is: but if so, no source = I've looked at seems to offer any facts, just unsupported = assertions.<br><br>People with varying degrees of expertise (or lack = thereof) can speculate or state; but that's not the same as having any = evidence that supports the case one way or the = other.<br><br>Cheers!<br><br>Chris<br><br>On 24-Jun-09, at 2:41 PM, Hans = Toom wrote:<br><br><blockquote type=3D"cite">Hi = Christopher,<br></blockquote><blockquote = type=3D"cite"><br></blockquote><blockquote type=3D"cite">In reference to = "Frank" and his blog, here's his background, = http://blogs.thatpetplace.com/thatreptileblog/about/ He has a = masters in Biology and is a consultant for several zoos. To = abruptly refer to his wikipedia submission as "Written by someone called = Frank", attempts to make his opinion anonymous and of no = value.<br></blockquote><blockquote = type=3D"cite"><br></blockquote><blockquote = type=3D"cite">Hans<br></blockquote><blockquote = type=3D"cite"><br></blockquote><blockquote = type=3D"cite"><br></blockquote><blockquote type=3D"cite">----- Original = Message ----- From: "Christopher Majka" = <c.majka@ns.sympatico.ca><br></blockquote><blockquote = type=3D"cite">To: = <naturens@chebucto.ns.ca><br></blockquote><blockquote = type=3D"cite">Sent: Wednesday, June 24, 2009 1:58 = PM<br></blockquote><blockquote type=3D"cite">Subject: Re: [NatureNS] = Handling Snapping Turtles<br></blockquote><blockquote = type=3D"cite"><br></blockquote><blockquote = type=3D"cite"><br></blockquote><blockquote type=3D"cite"><blockquote = type=3D"cite">Hi Hans,<br></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote = type=3D"cite"><blockquote = type=3D"cite"><br></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote = type=3D"cite"><blockquote type=3D"cite">On 24-Jun-09, at 1:15 PM, Hans = Toom wrote:<br></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote = type=3D"cite"><blockquote = type=3D"cite"><br></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote = type=3D"cite"><blockquote type=3D"cite"><blockquote type=3D"cite">There = tends to be more support for Peter Hope's position on not handling = the animal by the tail, than = not.<br></blockquote></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote = type=3D"cite"><blockquote type=3D"cite"><blockquote = type=3D"cite"><br></blockquote></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote = type=3D"cite"><blockquote type=3D"cite"><blockquote type=3D"cite">=46rom = wikipedia http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Common_Snapping_Turtle , perhaps = not a scientific resource but usually fairly reliable. "It is a = common misconception that Common snappers may be safely picked up = by its tail, with no harm to the animal; in fact, this has a high = chance of injuring the turtle, especially the tail itself and the = vertebral = column".<br></blockquote></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote = type=3D"cite"><blockquote = type=3D"cite"><br></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote = type=3D"cite"><blockquote type=3D"cite">This is part of the "lore" that = I was referring to. The Wikipedia is not a scientific publication = as you point out, and the entries in it vary a great deal in = reliability depending on who has written and/or contributed to = them (which one can't determine), so it is effectively an = anonymous source.<br></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote = type=3D"cite"><blockquote = type=3D"cite"><br></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote = type=3D"cite"><blockquote type=3D"cite">In the case of this entry on = snapping turtles, you'll notice that the cited source for the statement = above is a blog:<br></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote = type=3D"cite"><blockquote = type=3D"cite"><br></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote = type=3D"cite"><blockquote = type=3D"cite">http://blogs.thatpetplace.com/thatreptileblog/2008/06/24/han= dling-snapping-turtles-chelydra-serpentina-and-other-large-turtles/<br></b= lockquote></blockquote><blockquote type=3D"cite"><blockquote = type=3D"cite"><br></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote = type=3D"cite"><blockquote type=3D"cite">Written by someone called = "Frank" that, in turn, says:<br></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote = type=3D"cite"><blockquote = type=3D"cite"><br></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote = type=3D"cite"><blockquote type=3D"cite">"Do not lift snappers by their = tails, as is often done =96 this will cause severe injuries to the = spine and internal organs."<br></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote = type=3D"cite"><blockquote = type=3D"cite"><br></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote = type=3D"cite"><blockquote type=3D"cite">Which again is an unsupported = assertion by an almost anonymous source. This may or may not be true, = but I've tracked enough "urban legends" that circulate without = substantiation on the Internet to want to have a source in fact = before I necessarily believe it. ;-> Thus far, I haven't found = it and John Gilhen, an expert herpetologist, says that it is not = true.<br></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type=3D"cite"><blockquote = type=3D"cite"><br></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote = type=3D"cite"><blockquote = type=3D"cite">Cheers!<br></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote = type=3D"cite"><blockquote = type=3D"cite"><br></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote = type=3D"cite"><blockquote = type=3D"cite">Chris<br></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote = type=3D"cite"><blockquote = type=3D"cite"><br></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote = type=3D"cite"><blockquote type=3D"cite">Christopher Majka - Atlantic = Canada Coleoptera<br></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote = type=3D"cite"><blockquote = type=3D"cite">http://www.chebucto.ns.ca/Environment/NHR/atlantic_coleopter= a.html<br></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type=3D"cite"><blockquote = type=3D"cite">c.majka@ns.sympatico.ca<br></blockquote></blockquote><blockq= uote type=3D"cite"><blockquote = type=3D"cite"><br></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote = type=3D"cite"><blockquote = type=3D"cite"><br></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote = type=3D"cite"><br></blockquote><br></div></blockquote></div><br></div></di= v></body></html>= --Apple-Mail-10--807089526--
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