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 This might be what is happe
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Things haven't really improved with regard to e-mail not being received
but it's not predictable or consistent. As noted originally, e-mails
from DFO (Fisheries and Oceans, @dfo-mpo.gc.ca) were not being received
but I've also had some e-mails from sympatico servers not come through,
as well as notification of E-Tranfers. This all started when the
chebucto e-mail system went down in March. And as noted above, these
issues are not consistent. Some e-mails from those systems do come
through but others do not. But it's impossible to know how much e-mail
that I need doesn't come through.
CCN has been my primary e-mail for almost 20 years and I believe in the
work that CCN does providing low-cost internet access throughout the
Halifax community, including the work setting up Wi-Fi in various
seniors' residences. But if I can't rely upon the system for my e-mail
I would have to give up my membership.
What's the possibility to these issues being resolved?
Thanks,
Philip Greyson (phyllo@chebucto.ns.ca)
On 28/03/2018 2:41 AM, Chris Maxwell wrote:
> Well that is disappointing. I fielded two reports within hours of
> each other of mail not arriving related to waiting
> for an email about employment. I found the explanation for one of
> them and wondered whether I had for both.
> It would seem not.
>
> In answer to the question, maybe sort of: Remember how CRA had an
> issue with https and the Heartbleed attack
> last year? This prompted a bunch of tightening up of SSL services at
> CCN rejecting older versions of SSL and
> older ciphers within SSL. This might be what is happening from what
> the logs are reporting.
>
> The logs report that when the DFO server connects it is unable to come
> to an agreement with us on
> a common set of supported ciphers. I remember having difficulty
> finding the handles to adjust to
> control of ciphers and SSL versions in Zmailer and so I can not find
> them in the configuration file
> now either to pull back on the paranoia. There was a great deal of
> pressure on the Tech Team to
> be able to pass the external validations that we were no longer
> vulnerable at the time so I can not
> rule out that things have been hard-coded into the binaries and that
> it would be greatly challenging to
> roll this back now that people are no longer paying such close
> attention. I had hoped to recruit
> someone on the tech team to take on finding a temporary work around
> until I get back from my
> enforced limitation on time I can put into this, but no one stepped
> forward.
>
> If my diagnosis is correct this can be solved by
> * Upgrading us to a newer and better mail transport software which is
> what the tech team is working on instead of
> finding temporary work-arounds (this may or may not help, since
> all it might do is provide the levers to lower the
> security on our SSL, something which is opposed by some members of
> the tech team.) If I could re-find the levers
> to pull easily I would.
> * Having the administrators of vsnsbiodmzedg01.dfo-mpo.gc.ca
> <http://vsnsbiodmzedg01.dfo-mpo.gc.ca> upgrade their SSL library and
> parameters
> to support a newer TLS/SSL and cipher suite, or continue the
> conversation when the STARTTLS
> fails and just send the message via plaintext.
>
> I know our STARTTLS is not simply broken since office365 is able to
> deliver messages via it.
>
>
> If you are opting for option 2, here is the log entry for their
> reference to see if they can find a workaround.
>
>
> 0LKyDWB0001# 000-connection from vsnsbiodmzedg01.dfo-mpo.gc.ca
> <http://vsnsbiodmzedg01.dfo-mpo.gc.ca>[205.194.26.55]:25661 on port 25
> ipcnt 1 childs 13 pid 13697 ident: IDENT-NONSENSE
> 0LKyDWB0001# 000-Didn't find DNS A object:
> 55.26.194.205.zen.spamhaus.org <http://zen.spamhaus.org>.
> 0LKyDWB0001# 000-Didn't find DNS A object:
> 55.26.194.205.bl.spamcop.net <http://bl.spamcop.net>.
> 0LKyDWB0001w 220 sec.smtp.chebucto.ns.Ca ZMailer Server 2.99.57 #1
> ESMTP+IDENT ready at Tue, 27 Mar 2018 08:10:55 -0300
> 0LKyDWB0001r EHLO VSNSBIODMZEDG01.DFO-MPO.GC.CA
> 0LKyDWB0001w 250-sec.smtp.chebucto.ns.Ca Hello
> VSNSBIODMZEDG01.DFO-MPO.GC.CA
> 0LKyDWB0001w 250-SIZE 200000000
> 0LKyDWB0001w 250-8BITMIME
> 0LKyDWB0001w 250-PIPELINING
> 0LKyDWB0001w 250-CHUNKING
> 0LKyDWB0001w 250-ENHANCEDSTATUSCODES
> 0LKyDWB0001w 250-DSN
> 0LKyDWB0001w 250-X-RCPTLIMIT 150
> 0LKyDWB0001w 250-STARTTLS
> 0LKyDWB0001w 250-ETRN
> 0LKyDWB0001w 250 HELP
> 0LKyDWB0001r STARTTLS
> 0LKyDWB0001w 220 Ready to start TLS
> 0LKyDWB0001# 000-SSL_accept:error in SSLv2/v3 read client hello A
> 0LKyDWB0001# 000-SSL3 alert write:fatal:handshake failure
> 0LKyDWB0001# 000-SSL_accept:error in SSLv3 read client hello C
> 0LKyDWB0001# 000-SSL_accept:error in SSLv3 read client hello C
> 0LKyDWB0001# 000-SSL_accept error -1/1
> 0LKyDWB0001# 000-13697:error:1408A0C1:SSL
> routines:SSL3_GET_CLIENT_HELLO:no shared cipher:s3_srvr.c:1087:
> 0LKyDWB0001# 000-SSL session removed
> 0LKyDWB0001# 000-TLS stopping; mode was: OFF
>
>
> Now, given my interactions with mx.ssan.seg-egs.GC.CA, I can not rule
> out that I never did find
> the appropriate lever and the problem is that we offer to talk SSL3
> instead of rejecting
> unless they start with TLSv1 and rather than not make the request it
> is failing because it is allowed.
>
>
>
>
> --------
> Chris Maxwell
> Chair, Technical Committee, Chebucto Community Net Society
> cmaxwell@dal.ca <mailto:cmaxwell@dal.ca>, 902-494-1369
>
>
>
>> On Mar 27, 2018, at 11:41 AM, Richard Bonner <ak621@chebucto.ns.ca
>> <mailto:ak621@chebucto.ns.ca>> wrote:
>>
>>
>> On Tue, 27 Mar 2018, Philip R. Greyson wrote:
>>
>>> Hi Richard and userhelp:
>>>
>>> Was there ever any resolution to this?
>>
>> *** Tech was working on it last week, but I don't have an update. I
>> am CCing this to them.
>>
>>
>>> I still don't receive any e-mail from my dfo-mpo.gc.ca
>>> <http://dfo-mpo.gc.ca> account. I don't know whether all e-mails
>>> from Government servers are getting blocked.
>>
>> *** I will leave the above paragraph in so that CCN Tech will know
>> to look specifically into government domains.
>>
>> Sorry for the issue.
>>
>> Richard Bonner
>> Chebucto User Help
>>
>
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<p>Things haven't really improved with regard to e-mail not being
received but it's not predictable or consistent. As noted
originally, e-mails from DFO (Fisheries and Oceans,
@dfo-mpo.gc.ca) were not being received but I've also had some
e-mails from sympatico servers not come through, as well as
notification of E-Tranfers. This all started when the chebucto
e-mail system went down in March. And as noted above, these
issues are not consistent. Some e-mails from those systems do
come through but others do not. But it's impossible to know how
much e-mail that I need doesn't come through.<br>
</p>
<p>CCN has been my primary e-mail for almost 20 years and I believe
in the work that CCN does providing low-cost internet access
throughout the Halifax community, including the work setting up
Wi-Fi in various seniors' residences. But if I can't rely upon
the system for my e-mail I would have to give up my membership. <br>
</p>
<p>What's the possibility to these issues being resolved?</p>
<p>Thanks, <br>
</p>
<p>Philip Greyson (phyllo@chebucto.ns.ca)<br>
</p>
<br>
<div class="moz-cite-prefix">On 28/03/2018 2:41 AM, Chris Maxwell
wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote type="cite"
cite="mid:C88D874B-8504-4C45-B9DF-29493ED4EED2@dal.ca">
<meta http-equiv="Content-Type" content="text/html;
charset=windows-1252">
Well that is disappointing. I fielded two reports within hours
of each other of mail not arriving related to waiting
<div class="">for an email about employment. I found the
explanation for one of them and wondered whether I had for both.</div>
<div class="">It would seem not.</div>
<div class=""><br class="">
</div>
<div class=""> In answer to the question, maybe sort of: Remember
how CRA had an issue with https and the Heartbleed attack </div>
<div class="">last year? This prompted a bunch of tightening up
of SSL services at CCN rejecting older versions of SSL and </div>
<div class="">older ciphers within SSL. This might be what is
happening from what the logs are reporting.</div>
<div class=""><br class="">
</div>
<div class="">The logs report that when the DFO server connects it
is unable to come to an agreement with us on </div>
<div class="">a common set of supported ciphers. I remember
having difficulty finding the handles to adjust to </div>
<div class="">control of ciphers and SSL versions in Zmailer and
so I can not find them in the configuration file </div>
<div class="">now either to pull back on the paranoia. There was
a great deal of pressure on the Tech Team to </div>
<div class="">be able to pass the external validations that we
were no longer vulnerable at the time so I can not </div>
<div class="">rule out that things have been hard-coded into the
binaries and that it would be greatly challenging to </div>
<div class="">roll this back now that people are no longer paying
such close attention. I had hoped to recruit </div>
<div class="">someone on the tech team to take on finding a
temporary work around until I get back from my </div>
<div class="">enforced limitation on time I can put into this, but
no one stepped forward.</div>
<div class=""><br class="">
</div>
<div class="">If my diagnosis is correct this can be solved by </div>
<div class="">* Upgrading us to a newer and better mail transport
software which is what the tech team is working on instead of </div>
<div class=""> finding temporary work-arounds (this may or may
not help, since all it might do is provide the levers to lower
the </div>
<div class=""> security on our SSL, something which is opposed
by some members of the tech team.) If I could re-find the
levers </div>
<div class=""> to pull easily I would.</div>
<div class="">* Having the administrators of <span
style="font-family: Menlo; font-size: 11px;
font-variant-ligatures: no-common-ligatures; color: rgb(255,
255, 255); background-color: rgb(0, 0, 0);" class=""><a
href="http://vsnsbiodmzedg01.dfo-mpo.gc.ca" class=""
moz-do-not-send="true">vsnsbiodmzedg01.dfo-mpo.gc.ca</a></span><span
style="font-family: Menlo; font-size: 11px; background-color:
rgb(255, 255, 255); font-variant-ligatures:
no-common-ligatures;" class=""> upgrade their SSL library and
parameters </span></div>
<div class=""><span style="font-family: Menlo; font-size: 11px;
background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255); font-variant-ligatures:
no-common-ligatures;" class=""> to support a newer TLS/SSL
and cipher suite, or continue the conversation when the
STARTTLS</span></div>
<div class=""><span style="font-family: Menlo; font-size: 11px;
background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255); font-variant-ligatures:
no-common-ligatures;" class=""> fails and just send the
message via plaintext. </span></div>
<div class=""><br class="">
</div>
<div class="">
<div class="">I know our STARTTLS is not simply broken since
office365 is able to deliver messages via it. </div>
</div>
<div class=""><br class="">
</div>
<div class=""><br class="">
</div>
<div class="">If you are opting for option 2, here is the log
entry for their reference to see if they can find a workaround.</div>
<div class=""><br class="">
</div>
<div class=""><br class="">
</div>
<div class="">
<div style="margin: 0px; font-size: 11px; line-height: normal;
font-family: Menlo; background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255);"
class=""><span style="font-variant-ligatures:
no-common-ligatures" class="">0LKyDWB0001# 000-connection
from </span><span style="font-variant-ligatures:
no-common-ligatures; color: #ffffff; background-color:
#000000" class=""><a
href="http://vsnsbiodmzedg01.dfo-mpo.gc.ca" class=""
moz-do-not-send="true">vsnsbiodmzedg01.dfo-mpo.gc.ca</a></span><span
style="font-variant-ligatures: no-common-ligatures" class="">
[205.194.26.55]:25661 on port 25 ipcnt 1 childs 13 pid 13697
ident: IDENT-NONSENSE</span></div>
<div style="margin: 0px; font-size: 11px; line-height: normal;
font-family: Menlo; background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255);"
class=""><span style="font-variant-ligatures:
no-common-ligatures" class="">0LKyDWB0001# 000-Didn't
find DNS A object: 55.26.194.205.<a
href="http://zen.spamhaus.org" class=""
moz-do-not-send="true">zen.spamhaus.org</a>.</span></div>
<div style="margin: 0px; font-size: 11px; line-height: normal;
font-family: Menlo; background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255);"
class=""><span style="font-variant-ligatures:
no-common-ligatures" class="">0LKyDWB0001# 000-Didn't
find DNS A object: 55.26.194.205.<a
href="http://bl.spamcop.net" class=""
moz-do-not-send="true">bl.spamcop.net</a>.</span></div>
<div style="margin: 0px; font-size: 11px; line-height: normal;
font-family: Menlo; background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255);"
class=""><span style="font-variant-ligatures:
no-common-ligatures" class="">0LKyDWB0001w 220
sec.smtp.chebucto.ns.Ca ZMailer Server 2.99.57 #1
ESMTP+IDENT ready at Tue, 27 Mar 2018 08:10:55 -0300</span></div>
<div style="margin: 0px; font-size: 11px; line-height: normal;
font-family: Menlo; background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255);"
class=""><span style="font-variant-ligatures:
no-common-ligatures" class="">0LKyDWB0001r EHLO
VSNSBIODMZEDG01.DFO-MPO.GC.CA</span></div>
<div style="margin: 0px; font-size: 11px; line-height: normal;
font-family: Menlo; background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255);"
class=""><span style="font-variant-ligatures:
no-common-ligatures" class="">0LKyDWB0001w
250-sec.smtp.chebucto.ns.Ca Hello
VSNSBIODMZEDG01.DFO-MPO.GC.CA</span></div>
<div style="margin: 0px; font-size: 11px; line-height: normal;
font-family: Menlo; background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255);"
class=""><span style="font-variant-ligatures:
no-common-ligatures" class="">0LKyDWB0001w 250-SIZE
200000000</span></div>
<div style="margin: 0px; font-size: 11px; line-height: normal;
font-family: Menlo; background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255);"
class=""><span style="font-variant-ligatures:
no-common-ligatures" class="">0LKyDWB0001w 250-8BITMIME</span></div>
<div style="margin: 0px; font-size: 11px; line-height: normal;
font-family: Menlo; background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255);"
class=""><span style="font-variant-ligatures:
no-common-ligatures" class="">0LKyDWB0001w 250-PIPELINING</span></div>
<div style="margin: 0px; font-size: 11px; line-height: normal;
font-family: Menlo; background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255);"
class=""><span style="font-variant-ligatures:
no-common-ligatures" class="">0LKyDWB0001w 250-CHUNKING</span></div>
<div style="margin: 0px; font-size: 11px; line-height: normal;
font-family: Menlo; background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255);"
class=""><span style="font-variant-ligatures:
no-common-ligatures" class="">0LKyDWB0001w
250-ENHANCEDSTATUSCODES</span></div>
<div style="margin: 0px; font-size: 11px; line-height: normal;
font-family: Menlo; background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255);"
class=""><span style="font-variant-ligatures:
no-common-ligatures" class="">0LKyDWB0001w 250-DSN</span></div>
<div style="margin: 0px; font-size: 11px; line-height: normal;
font-family: Menlo; background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255);"
class=""><span style="font-variant-ligatures:
no-common-ligatures" class="">0LKyDWB0001w
250-X-RCPTLIMIT 150</span></div>
<div style="margin: 0px; font-size: 11px; line-height: normal;
font-family: Menlo; background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255);"
class=""><span style="font-variant-ligatures:
no-common-ligatures" class="">0LKyDWB0001w 250-STARTTLS</span></div>
<div style="margin: 0px; font-size: 11px; line-height: normal;
font-family: Menlo; background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255);"
class=""><span style="font-variant-ligatures:
no-common-ligatures" class="">0LKyDWB0001w 250-ETRN</span></div>
<div style="margin: 0px; font-size: 11px; line-height: normal;
font-family: Menlo; background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255);"
class=""><span style="font-variant-ligatures:
no-common-ligatures" class="">0LKyDWB0001w 250 HELP</span></div>
<div style="margin: 0px; font-size: 11px; line-height: normal;
font-family: Menlo; background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255);"
class=""><span style="font-variant-ligatures:
no-common-ligatures" class="">0LKyDWB0001r STARTTLS</span></div>
<div style="margin: 0px; font-size: 11px; line-height: normal;
font-family: Menlo; background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255);"
class=""><span style="font-variant-ligatures:
no-common-ligatures" class="">0LKyDWB0001w 220 Ready to
start TLS</span></div>
<div style="margin: 0px; font-size: 11px; line-height: normal;
font-family: Menlo; background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255);"
class=""><span style="font-variant-ligatures:
no-common-ligatures" class="">0LKyDWB0001#
000-SSL_accept:error in SSLv2/v3 read client hello A</span></div>
<div style="margin: 0px; font-size: 11px; line-height: normal;
font-family: Menlo; background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255);"
class=""><span style="font-variant-ligatures:
no-common-ligatures" class="">0LKyDWB0001# 000-SSL3 alert
write:fatal:handshake failure</span></div>
<div style="margin: 0px; font-size: 11px; line-height: normal;
font-family: Menlo; background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255);"
class=""><span style="font-variant-ligatures:
no-common-ligatures" class="">0LKyDWB0001#
000-SSL_accept:error in SSLv3 read client hello C</span></div>
<div style="margin: 0px; font-size: 11px; line-height: normal;
font-family: Menlo; background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255);"
class=""><span style="font-variant-ligatures:
no-common-ligatures" class="">0LKyDWB0001#
000-SSL_accept:error in SSLv3 read client hello C</span></div>
<div style="margin: 0px; font-size: 11px; line-height: normal;
font-family: Menlo; background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255);"
class=""><span style="font-variant-ligatures:
no-common-ligatures" class="">0LKyDWB0001# 000-SSL_accept
error -1/1</span></div>
<div style="margin: 0px; font-size: 11px; line-height: normal;
font-family: Menlo; background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255);"
class=""><span style="font-variant-ligatures:
no-common-ligatures" class="">0LKyDWB0001#
000-13697:error:1408A0C1:SSL
routines:SSL3_GET_CLIENT_HELLO:no shared
cipher:s3_srvr.c:1087:</span></div>
<div style="margin: 0px; font-size: 11px; line-height: normal;
font-family: Menlo; background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255);"
class=""><span style="font-variant-ligatures:
no-common-ligatures" class="">0LKyDWB0001# 000-SSL
session removed</span></div>
<div style="margin: 0px; font-size: 11px; line-height: normal;
font-family: Menlo; background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255);"
class=""><span style="font-variant-ligatures:
no-common-ligatures" class="">0LKyDWB0001# 000-TLS
stopping; mode was: OFF</span></div>
</div>
<div class=""><span style="font-variant-ligatures:
no-common-ligatures" class=""><br class="">
</span></div>
<div class=""><br class="">
</div>
<div class="">Now, given my interactions with <span
style="font-family: Menlo; font-size: 11px; background-color:
rgb(255, 255, 255);" class="">mx.ssan.seg-egs.GC.CA, I can not
rule out that I never did find </span></div>
<div class=""><span style="background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255);"
class=""><font class="" face="Menlo"><span style="font-size:
11px;" class="">the appropriate lever and the problem is
that we offer to talk SSL3 instead of rejecting </span></font></span></div>
<div class=""><span style="background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255);"
class=""><font class="" face="Menlo"><span style="font-size:
11px;" class="">unless they start with TLSv1 and
rather than not </span></font></span><span
style="font-size: 11px; font-family: Menlo; background-color:
rgb(255, 255, 255);" class="">make the request it is failing
because it is allowed. </span></div>
<div class=""><span style="font-size: 11px; font-family: Menlo;
background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255);" class=""><br class="">
</span></div>
<div class=""><span style="font-size: 11px; font-family: Menlo;
background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255);" class=""><br class="">
</span></div>
<div class=""> <br class="">
<div class="">
<div style="color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Helvetica;
font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps:
normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal;
orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px;
text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto;
word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-size-adjust: auto;
-webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;"><br
class="Apple-interchange-newline">
--------</div>
<div style="color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Helvetica;
font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps:
normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal;
orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px;
text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto;
word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-size-adjust: auto;
-webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;">Chris Maxwell</div>
<div style="color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Helvetica;
font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps:
normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal;
orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px;
text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto;
word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-size-adjust: auto;
-webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;">Chair, Technical Committee,
Chebucto Community Net Society</div>
<div style="color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Helvetica;
font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps:
normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal;
orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px;
text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto;
word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-size-adjust: auto;
-webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;"><a
href="mailto:cmaxwell@dal.ca" class=""
moz-do-not-send="true">cmaxwell@dal.ca</a>, 902-494-1369</div>
<div style="color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Helvetica;
font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps:
normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal;
orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px;
text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto;
word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-size-adjust: auto;
-webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;" class=""><br class="">
</div>
<br class="Apple-interchange-newline">
</div>
<br class="">
<div>
<blockquote type="cite" class="">
<div class="">On Mar 27, 2018, at 11:41 AM, Richard Bonner
<<a href="mailto:ak621@chebucto.ns.ca" class=""
moz-do-not-send="true">ak621@chebucto.ns.ca</a>>
wrote:</div>
<br class="Apple-interchange-newline">
<div class="">
<div class=""><br class="">
On Tue, 27 Mar 2018, Philip R. Greyson wrote:<br
class="">
<br class="">
<blockquote type="cite" class="">Hi Richard and
userhelp:<br class="">
<br class="">
Was there ever any resolution to this?<br class="">
</blockquote>
<br class="">
*** Tech was working on it last week, but I don't have
an update. I am CCing this to them.<br class="">
<br class="">
<br class="">
<blockquote type="cite" class="">I still don't receive
any e-mail from my <a href="http://dfo-mpo.gc.ca"
class="" moz-do-not-send="true">dfo-mpo.gc.ca</a>
account. I don't know whether all e-mails from
Government servers are getting blocked.<br class="">
</blockquote>
<br class="">
*** I will leave the above paragraph in so that CCN
Tech will know to look specifically into government
domains.<br class="">
<br class="">
Sorry for the issue.<br class="">
<br class="">
Richard Bonner<br class="">
Chebucto User Help<br class="">
<br class="">
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</blockquote>
</div>
<br class="">
</div>
</blockquote>
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