sust-mar: 4 forwarded messages... seal huntin'

Date: Sat, 8 Jan 2000 13:05:09 -0400 (AST)
From: Paul A Falvo <pfalvo@chebucto.ns.ca>
To: Sustainable Maritimes <sust-mar@chebucto.ns.ca>
Precedence: bulk
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For your viewing pleasure ... dialogue between Kevin Chisholm and Dr.
Martin Willison (responding to a message Martin sent in December ...
you'll find it in the archives). ~Ed.

---------- Forwarded message ----------
From:	Kevin Chisholm <kchishol@fox.nstn.ca>
Organization: Dynagen Systems Inc.

Dear Martin

Harp seals were "managed" at a level which held their population to about
600,000, through regular harvesting. Then the anti-sealing protestors came
along, and the seal hunt ceased. With current harp seal population is in
the order of 4 to 5 million, as you suggest, then the population is far
above the level which has been proven as sustainable. An increased cull
will put the system back in balance. 

If the Harp Seal population was reduced to 1 million (a level which is
more than sustainable), this would represent 3 to 4 million less harp
seals consuming fish. Would you know how much fish 3 million to 4 million
harp seals can eat in a year? 

Thanks very much.

Kevin Chisholm



---------- Forwarded message ----------
Date: Mon, 13 Dec 1999 14:09:24 -0400
From:	Martin Willison <willison@is.dal.ca>

Kevin,

I don't know what "balance" means to you, but it obviously means something
quite different to a seal.  I don't know when the harp seal population was
600,000, but this is not the historical norm.  Clearly, if the population
can reach 5 million, then 600,000 is "sustainable"; but so is 300,000 and
so is 1 million.  In the mid 1800s the harp seal population was in the
millions (see Lavigne 1999) and the cod catch in the region was fairly
stable at 300,000 tonnes per year (see Hutchings and Myers 1995).  There
is no evidence that the current harp seal population is not "sustainable";
although it does, of course, have a maximum.  Seal populations fluctuate
naturally, however, and so this maximum is not a fixed value. 

Would you please define what you mean by "balance"?  You wrote that "An
increased [harp] seal cull will put the system back in balance"?  We could
have no seals and a "balance".  We could also have no hunting of seals and
a "balance", and we could have no fishing and a "balance".  Each of these
is a different balance, and each balance is dynamic.

You apparently regard sustainability as something that takes account of
human needs, but not the needs of anything else.  Why?  How do you justify
this morally? 

With respect to your question "Would you know how much fish 3 million to 4
million harp seals can eat in a year?", my best answer is "less than are
available", based on the fact that there is not yet evidence of
malnutrition.  It's worth noting in this regard that during the 1960s
trawlers removed 500,000 to 600,000 tonnes of northern cod per year from
the area in which the harp seals live.  This proved unsustainable and the
system went haywire as a result. 

It is unarguable that seals and humans are competitors in this region. 
Humans are technologically superior; but does this automatically give us
moral superiority? 

Finally, could you please address the question of whether a harp seal
population of 600,000, yielding 10% per year at the most, is sufficient to
feed the aboriginal and other traditional-user humans of the region, given
much higher historical seal herd norms?  I doubt it, and suggest that your
proposal counts them as relatively unimportant humans.  And, how do you
propose to close a commercial hunt for harp seals after it has "culled"
the population down to this minimal level?  Is this "sustainability"? 

Martin Willison

References: 
Hutching, J.A. and R.A. Myers (1995) in The North Atlantic
	Fisheries: Successes, Failures and Challenges, R.
	Arnason and L Felt (Eds.), Institute of Island Studies,
	Charlottetown.
Lavigne, D. (1999) Marine Mammal Science 15, 871-878



---------- Forwarded message ----------
Date:	Mon, 13 Dec 1999 16:30:52 -0400
From:	Kevin Chisholm <kchishol@fox.nstn.ca>
Organization: Dynagen Systems Inc.

Dear Martin

Thanks for your reply.

Martin Willison wrote:

I understand that this was the target level for sustainability of the Harp
Seal Herd in the 1960's and early 1970's; if they got above that limit,
the cull size was increased, and if it fell below that, the cull size was
decreased. 

As it is now, the cod catch by Man is virtually nothing. If the Harp Seal
population was in the "low millions", say 1 or 2, rather than the "higher
millions", say 3 to 5, the difference would represent about 2 or 3 million
Harp Seals. Assuming they eat only 1 ton per seal per year, then this is
another 2 million to 3 million tons per year for Man to catch. 

What would you feel is the "minimum sustainable population?"

What I was thinking about in terms of "balance" was sharing the fish
resource with the seals in some sustainable manner. As it is now, the
seals get first priority access to the resource. 

> You apparently regard sustainability as something that
> takes account of human needs, but not the needs of
> anything else.  Why?  How do you justify this morally?

I never said that, but I do say that human needs should be taken into
account, which they are not to any significant degree now. I am not at all
advocating extincting the seals; what I am advocating is a balanced and
sustainable of the Ocean Resources for the betterment of Mankind. Is that
immoral? 

> With respect to your question "Would you know how much fish 3 > million
to 4 million harp seals can eat in a year?", my best > answer is "less
than are available", based on the fact that > there is not yet evidence of
malnutrition. 

Well, they may not be suffering from malnutrition yet, because Manhas
effectively ceased fishing; they are eating "Man's Share" of the fishery
resource. 

It would be interesting to know the "total catch", ie, those caught by
Man, and those caught by Harp Seals, and then compare this with what would
have been a sustainable Northern Cod catch. For example, if Man had cut
back to say 300,000, and the Seals were culled to half their population,
then perhaps the Northern Cod Stocks would be in fine shape.  It is wrong
to blame the entire problem on Man, unless Man's catch was well above
sensible levels. 

I don't think this is a question of Morality. I feel it is a question of
sharing the fishery resource, in a sustainable manner. At the present, the
seals are hogging it all. Why do they have first right to the resource?
They are exercising a "morality judgement" by saying they are more moral
than the little fishies which they eat. Is it not fair that if they "live
by the sword, they die by the sword?" 

I am not sure about this, but a "food fishery" cull of 60,000 seals per
year may suffice. If not, then bump up the base.  Anything more than this,
whether aboriginal, or non-aboriginal, is a "commercial fishery";  it can
be raised or lowered to ensure that the sustainable herd level is
maintained. 

>  I doubt it, and suggest
> that your proposal counts them as relatively unimportant
> humans.

That is your suggestion, not mine. You seem to be suggesting that seals
are more important than non-aboriginals. 

> And, how do you propose to close a commercial hunt
> for harp seals after it has "culled" the population down to
> this minimal level?  Is this "sustainability"?

It is actually quite simple: tell the Seal Cull people the "Rules of the
Game" before they start, and then hold them to the rules. Let them decide
if it will be worthwhile for them to set up: If too many "get in"  some
are going to have to "get out" if the herd level reaches its lower limit.
Mankind does an excellent job of managing the deer herd, and has done an
excellent job of managing the seal herd in the past. There is no reason
why it can't be done again. 

By the way, did you ever notice that the population of Atlantic Salmon
is almost inversely proportional to the seal population?

Kindest regards,

Kevin Chisholm



---------- Forwarded message ----------
Date:	Mon, 13 Dec 1999 17:45:48 -0400 (AST)
From:	Martin Willison <willison@is.dal.ca>

Kevin and sust-mar,

I don't have the energy to fight on this, there is too much else 
that needs to be done, but I will give it one more shot because
some of Kevin's assumptions are fundamentally flawed.

> As it is now, the cod catch by Man is virtually nothing. If the Harp
> Seal population was in the "low millions", say 1 or 2, rather than the
> "higher millions", say 3 to 5, the difference would represent about 2 or
> 3 million Harp Seals. Assuming they eat only 1 ton per seal per year,
> then this is another 2 million to 3 million tons per year for Man to
> catch.

Harp seals mostly don't eat cod.  I have heard the estimate that 
1% of their diet is cod, but I can't verify this.  They prefer 
fish like capelin and sandlance that cod feed on too.  Seals also
eat predators of cod, and so the ecological relationships are
complex.  Historically, there have been large seal populations
and large cod populations.  It's not a simple matter of only cod, 
seals and humans interacting.  

> > There is no evidence that the current harp seal population
> > is not "sustainable"; although it does, of course, have
> > a maximum.
> 
> What would you feel is the "minimum sustainable population?"

I don't know why this question needs to be asked.  Would
you ask "what is the minumum sustainable human population?".
For harp seals it is below 600,000 for sure.  By asking 
this question is Kevin asking that we keep all populations
other than the human at its minimal level?  Only barely
enough harp seals to survive as a species; only barely enough
bears to survive as a species; only barely enough wolves, and
so on.  If this governs our planning for sustainability, then
God help us! 

> > Would you please define what you mean by "balance"?
 ........
 
> What I was thinking about in terms of "balance" was sharing the fish
> resource with the seals in some sustainable manner. As it is now, the
> seals get first priority access to the resource.

Of course they do, and so they should.  They live in the ocean
all the time and all they eat is fish.  This is a defining
characteristic of being a seal.  Humans are land-dwellers, and 
have invented farming as the primary means of survival.  If there 
were a "balance" we would have to invite the seals to our dinner 
tables as well as going to theirs.  Clearly we should take our 
share of fish AFTER the seals have taken theirs.

> > You apparently regard sustainability as something that
> > takes account of human needs, but not the needs of
> > anything else.  Why?  How do you justify this morally?
> 
> I never said that, but I do say that human needs should be taken into
> account, which they are not to any significant degree now. 

This is false and ridiculous.  During the last 3 years almost a 
million harp seals have been killed because Canada thinks there
are too many.  Every environmental scientist in the world
acknowledges that there are too many humans and there are 
endless discussions by millions of concerned people about 
how to find morally acceptable ways to stabilize the human
population.  I have never heard anyone propose clubbing millions 
of humans to death.  Yet this is the "solution" which Kevin
supports for seals, and then defends as being one that takes
no account of human needs.  It's bizarre.  Some of the seals 
are rendered into capsules of seal oil that are being touted as 
good for "keeping the wife happy" (nudge-nudge ... know
what I mean) [I didn't invent this; I heard someone offering 
them for sale in exactly this way].  Lie upon lie for the 
sake of the big lie. 

> >  It's worth noting in
> > this regard that during the 1960s trawlers removed 500,000 to
> > 600,000 tonnes of northern cod per year from the area in which
> > the harp seals live.  This proved unsustainable and the
> > system went haywire as a result.
> 
> It would be interesting to know the "total catch", ie, those caught by
> Man, and those caught by Harp Seals, and then compare this with what
> would have been a sustainable Northern Cod catch. For example, if Man
> had cut back to say 300,000, and the Seals were culled to half their
> population, then perhaps the Northern Cod Stocks would be in fine shape.
> It is wrong to blame the entire problem on Man, unless Man's catch was
> well above sensible levels.

The problem with this argument is that as Kevin has already 
explained, when this severe over-fishing was conducted, the
seal population was substantially lower than now.  Seals played
absolutely no role in the collapse of northern cod, and this
is well established by fisheries scientists.  There is, however, 
an ongoing argument about whether the large harp seal herd is, 
or is not, delaying recovery of the northern cod population.  

In the mid 1800s there were harp seal numbers similar to 
today and 300,000 tonnes of northern cod were caught annually.  
This rate of fish catch continued for 100 years, with 
fluctuating seal numbers, until the 1960s, when fleets of 
big draggers entered the scene, and destroyed the fishery.  
To cover up this calamity various stories have been invented, 
including the "seals eat all the cod" story.  It's a big lie.

Kevin asked:

> .....  Is it not fair that
> if they "live by the sword, they die by the sword?"

I have not written objecting to coastal peoples in Labrador
eating seals as food.  In this remote place, seals eat fish
and people eat seals. If this was the "balance" that Kevin sought 
I would not have written to sust-mar.  It isn't like this.  

> .... Mankind does an excellent job of managing the deer herd, and has
> done an excellent job of managing the seal herd in the past. There is no
> reason why it can't be done again ....

As a matter of interest, in the "Sustainable Maritimes" of
your dream, which species are not "managed"?  Or is this
whole living world just there so that we can play games 
with it?  Who is God anyway?

> By the way, did you ever notice that the population of Atlantic Salmon
> is almost inversely proportional to the seal population?

No I didn't because it isn't.  In my world it is considered 
irresponsible to make up statistics.  This statement is akin to
racial hatred.  The evidence on Atlantic Salmon is clear.  The
culprits are: pollution (especially acid rain); river habitat 
loss of various kinds; fishing on the Greenland over-wintering
population (a relatively new phenomenon); and now that the
population levels are low, fishing on river populations, 
especially at estuaries.  Seals will, of course, eat a salmon
when they can get one, but this isn't very often.

Martin Willison


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