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Index of Subjects Hi David and all! Whether we choose to use the UNIX quota system or not, we have a specific problem that needs to be addressed. [and I agree that there are issues that we have not fully explored, and that there are probably ways to achieve the desired result, which is a successfully functioning collection of websites] The issues, as I see them: (1) The board has chosen a model for "new-style" information providers that involves a scheme for selling disk space. (2) We are not in a position to bill IP's after-the-fact, until and unless we build a data-collection system to track usage, and an automated charge-card billing system. We would incur costs far too high for the revenue at issue with a manual billing and collection system. (3) We can offer selected levels of disk-space paid-in-advance (4) For both PPP and newIP users, we don't have a ready way to (proactively) advise users of their quota status - they have to know its an issue, and go seeking out the information. We need a way to advise them of the problem, and offer useful suggestions i.e. subscribe to more space [to CCN's advantage] (or clean up what you have [possibly to user's advantage]) (5) There is a problem to the IP if their quota fills up - parts of their website may break. Filling up may be as a result of installing new files, archiving old files - and RCS :-), output of CGI's, core files, Pine folders, etc. etc. (6) There is a problem to CCN, and other IP's, if the webspace partition fills up, so if some users choose to fill up unreasonable space, by accident (e.g. a CGI gone wrong) or intent (needed to add more content.) So CCN may act responsibly by limiting a user's impact on others. (7) The total "quota" that has been allocated is normally significantly larger than the space that is actually in use, and we can assume a reasonable fill percentage based on experience. It is OK to "overbook the system" as long as we keep track of it and are able to respond when more space is actually needed. (8) We can "soft-track" disk space needs by having a script which periodically (perhaps daily or hourly - Michael Smith reminded us that there is already a system in place that handles part of this.) (9) That script could use e-mail as a reporting method, to send (selected) users the promotional message that they should buy more space :) It needs to be cognizant of the problems that happen with filled mailboxes (and I'm not at all sure whether it should monitor mailbox space - but that's a separate issue - except as to deliverability of the report.) (10) If we feel it is important to protect the system from users, and at the same time not impact on normal operation, we could use quota with a high ratio between soft and hard limits, e.g. soft limit (and reporting threshold) of say 5 MB, hard limit of 25 MB This would not impact on unusual situations for an individual IP, and give them time to respond, but at the same time prevent them from swamping the system. (11) Many IP's especially new ones, are likely to be using "automated" upload tools which may not give effective reporting of upload failure due to quota limits. (12) With new-style IP's that don't use CCN's PPP or dialup service (i.e. ftp from another provider) we need to store a contact-email address(es) for the site editor(s) for several purposes - e.g. quota problems, system downtime warnings, renewal notices, etc. IPDBmark2 is probably the appropriate place. Add more requirements here - Once we have evaluated the issues/requirements then the discussion can continue on the ccn-tech list as to how and who will build it. Ed Dyer aa146@chebucto.ns.ca (902) H 826-7496 CCN Postmaster http://www.chebucto.ns.ca/~aa146/ W 426-4894 CSuite Technical Workshop Religion Page Editor, Chebucto Community Network http://www.chebucto.ns.ca On Wed, 3 May 2000, David L. Potter wrote: > Before we get too involved in 'solving' this pressing question,... > > If you send mail to someone who is over-quota in mail you're simply > making the problem worse... > > Dial-in text users already get the appropriate messages so anything > else you do with respect to their accounts is probably unnecessary and as > noted above in danger of making the problem worse... > > PPP users typically don't need to be notified about mail quota problems > because they download their mail and it does not stay on our system... > > Individual PPP users find about home quota problems when they try to FTP > files in and the write fails... and they can deal with it then... we make > no undertaking that indivdual users can run cgi-scripts that might add > data/files to their file area, > > So the only reason to do this is to justify having IP's under hard Unix > quotas particularly in the home directory area which I still think is > essentially wrong-headed... > > We promote the availability of IP-CGI as a service for our information > provider accounts... so we have some responsibility to ensure that it works, > and that they are not unpleasantly surprised to discover that their data > collection stopped a week ago because they went over a hard quota and the > script failed without warning... > > In all the discussion about quotas for IP's I've heard no mention about > the number of files permitted... is the proposal simply to pick some > arbitrary number out of the air and then charge an IP who has a lot of > small files and goes over the file quota limit, or has this been even > thought about... > > --- > > Even back when hard drives were _VERY_, _VERY_ expensive we had no problem > providing an Information Provider with all of the disk space they could > use... > > I can accept that unlimited disk space for a user/IP represents a black > hole (empty entry) in the list of services and this would confuse clients > and staff equally.... But even if we associate some nominal disk storage > with a particular level of service there are several ways of dealing with > IP's that exceed that threashold without imposing hard unix limits. > I'm still not aware of any compelling reason to focus our attention on > making sure that an IP uses not one bit nor byte more than their > allotment... > > We have speed limits on the highway, human safety is in involved, however it > wouldn't make sense to configure cars to explode if they go over the speed > limit in an effort to protect everyone else... > > While the lack of a hard quota may appear to be a significant problem at > the bean-counting level, at the technical level we always have had lots of > disk space available and from a pure technical perspective this is quite > low priority... I find it hard to attribute any significant level of > priority to this at all. We'd be better off starting to undo the mess that > putting IP's in the 'home' tree is creating. > > BTW quota -q is not supported under Solaris... ;-) > > david potter > > > On Wed, 3 May 2000, Chris Watt wrote: > > > At 10:54 PM 5/2/00 -0300, Andrew D. Wright wrote: > > > The idea is to write a script that checks all /home/ directory > > >quotas against what they should have, then mail the account when they go > > >over quota with a little message telling them what they can do to remedy > > >the situation. > > > > Would something as simple as > > > > if quota -q $homedir $username; then > > sendmail -foffice@chebucto.ns.ca $useraddress < overquota.txt > > fi > > if quota -q /var/spool/mail $username; then > > sendmail -foffice@chebucto.ns.ca $useraddress < overmailquota.txt > > fi > > > > > > > > work? AFAIK there is no point in attempting to distinguish between over > > hard-quota and over soft-quota, since we cannot deliver to someone over > > hard-quota anyway, right? > > > > Also, am I correct in thinking that > > echo `basename $homedir` @chebucto.ns.ca > > is going to be the right e-mail address? If so it could just run in a for > > loop on /home/* without any need for extra tables I would expect (failing > > that, a two column translation table with code to default to the address > > generated from the home dir would be fairly easy to set up. > > > > It may be the case that some of this is broken under Solaris, but it works > > in Linux. > > -- > > > > Who is this General Failure, and why is he reading my hard disk? > > >
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