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Hi David, your arguments are a bit hand-waving, and as such hard to address. However, there is one implicit assumption, namely that all objects were originally in 'visible vicinity' (your 'egg'), and are now no longer so. That implicit assumption is not necessarily true; the original area may have been larger than a point. Another counterexample to your general argument about objects that were once close to each other, and now not any more, is a black hole. The inside of one is not visible to us, but that does not imply that the objects inside moved away from us faster than the speed of light. The lesson from the black hole example is that general relativity (Einsteins theory of gravity) is less intuitive than one would like. Happy thinking, Burkhard On Sun, Feb 24, 2019 at 12:57 PM David <dwebster@glinx.com> wrote: > > Hi Again Burkhard & All, > With regard to distant objects appearing to move away from us at > speeds greater than light this is also mentioned tangentially in the > Wikipedia Big Bang as follows; "Since the universe has a finite age, and > light travels at a finite speed there may be events in the past whose > light has not had time to reach us." If everything expanded from this > Dragon's egg and the light from one speck of this egg has not had time > to reach us then it would seem that it has been moving away from us at a > speed greater than c. > Or approaching this from a slightly different direction, one way to > account for the condition, whereby in an expanding universe the light of > some past event has not yet reached us, is to conclude that such sources > have moved away from us at speeds greater than light. The light from > this hypothetical source has had more than 10^9 years to get here so it > must have taken the scenic route and paused often to watch sunsets. > I could bore you to tears with first hand accounts of how even in > very simple systems, and in the absence of independent quality control > checks, one can be greatly in error. So in Astronomy/Astrophysics I > suspect there is close to an infinity of opportunities for taking wrong > turns. An interesting subject whatever the truth may be. > YT, DW, Kentville > > > > ------ Original Message ------ > From: "Burkhard Plache" <burkhardplache@gmail.com> > To: naturens@chebucto.ns.ca > Sent: 2/21/2019 8:32:28 PM > Subject: Re: [NatureNS] Big Bang ? > > >Hi David, > > > >the model of the expansion of the universe (Big Bang model) does not > >rely solely on the red shift of light, but on a number of other > >observations. > >See https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Big_Bang#Observational_evidence > >The current model is a consensus, in fair agreement with those > >observations. (As in any model, there are some hm-hm-s.) > >Some observations of the universe (horizon, flatness, addressed a bit > >further down in the wikipedia article) the big bang model does not > >address or explain. > >Thus, the model is considered incomplete, or a work in progress. > > > >In the past, there have been ideas to 'explain away the expansion of > >the universe' by postulating light might be losing energy over > >distance or over time. > >None of those ideas have survived observational scrutiny, esp. since > >with those modifications, the other observations do not fit into a > >larger model. > >Like too many balls to juggle at the same time. Thus, Occam's Razor > >favours the redshift. > > > >Your suggestion that light might interact with light is generally > >valid. Such interactions have been seen in experiments, and are in > >agreement with theory (Quantum Electro Dynamics, to be precise). > >However, the photon-photon interaction probability is (a) extremely > >low, and (b) not a way to systematically lower photon energies (due to > >energy conservation). > > > >Your suggestion that 'the most remote sources [...] appear to be > >receding faster than the speed of light' is simply not correct or a > >misunderstanding. > >Not sure where you got that information. Such statements are often > >repeated, but that does not make them true. > > > >You may also want to read the 'Misconceptions' section in the > >wikipedia article, which addresses your 'In the Beginning' notion. > > > >Sorry to shoot down your suggestions. > >You are not the first one to express such ideas, > >Burkhard > > > >On Thu, Feb 21, 2019 at 7:49 PM David <dwebster@glinx.com> wrote: > >> > >> Dear All, > >> I still have a problem with the big bang model; a modern version of "In the beginning" and wonder if there are alternative interpretations of observations. > >> For example, sound is a wave in gas and sound can be silenced by generating waves which are 90o out of phase with the incoming sound. This is used in choppers e.g. so radio sounds in earphones are not swamped by chopper thub thub noise. > >> Light has properties of a wave and the concept of the big bang and an expanding universe is founded on the observation of greater red shift with greater distance from the observer. > >> This red shift can involve light which has been traveling for billions of years. Frequency of light is a function energy; waves with less energy have longer wavelengths. So any very unlikely parasitic interference which once in say 100,000 years might drain off a bit of energy could be the source of the red shift. I understand that the most remote sources, based on red shift, appear to be receding at speeds greater than the speed of light. And this is a double contradiction; c is the absolute speed limit and if they are speeding away faster than light how could we see them ? There has to be something wrong with this picture. > >> So combining the above, why would it not be possible for light waves from multiple sources to infrequently interfere in ways which somehow drained energy and thereby decreased wavelength of light from a given source, giving rise to an apparent red shift effect ? This would happen not at the source but during travel. This would superficially at least fit the observations. As distance between observer and source increased there would be greater opportunity for this parasitic decrease in wave energy to take place. > >> YT,, DW, Kentville >
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