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> Subject: RE: [NatureNS] Red Herr This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_2FC3_01D14A3E.5F441460 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi David P. & Nick, Jan 8, 2006 After much delay dealing with numerous side matters I read both of = your e-mails of Dec 27, 2015. Given access to relevant research results = from two or more independent sources, the full papers, not just a = summary of a summary of an executive summary, I am prepared to believe = anything; provided I have good reason to believe that the researchers in = question have done their homework. And in all such matters Murphy's Law = never sleeps.=20 Alex McKeague of Ottawa (in the 80s ?) distributed subsamples of = thoroughly validated soil samples to interested labs, assigned code = letters to each lab involved, so the outliers could avoid embarassment, = and then reported all results back to those involved. He did this at = least twice using different samples. The range in results was astounding = and Ca, drawing on memory, had great scatter. It would be helpful if you each could send me a pdf file of the two = most complete papers. YT, DW =20 ----- Original Message -----=20 From: David Patriquin=20 To: naturens@chebucto.ns.ca=20 Sent: Sunday, December 27, 2015 7:51 AM Subject: Re: [NatureNS] Red Herring & Forestry - calcium exchangeable = etc The studies/modelling by Ouimet, Clair & others related to acid rain' = & Noseworthy's thesis examining forest biomass harvesting include = calculation of "Exceedances"which occur when the removal of basic = cations by acid rain exceed the additions though atmospheric deposition = and weathering of rocks.... The Noseworthy research, incorporated more detailed local information = than the Ouillet et al.study and made an upward revision of the estimate = of the area of Nova Scotia mapped in exceedance from 39.9% to 73%. This = is simply not good news for Nova Scotia: even with no harvesting, soil = fertility under 73% of our forests will continue to decline because of = acid rain. Noseworthy presents results for calculations of sustainable harvest = rates across Kejimkujik National Park for harvesting with and without = base-cation depletions....* Although not specifically discussed in this = context, the results can be interpreted as indicating that limited = selective harvest schemes, but not clearcuts, would be sustainable for = most of that area. Such a conclusion would likely apply also to the = Bowater St. Margaret=E2=80=99s Bay Lands which have similar geology, and = indeed probably to most of Nova Scotia forests. (*There is no assumption that there would be commercial harvesting in = Keji - details for Keji but not other areas are apparently given because = there are no commercial interests in it as it is a protected area; also = exisiting data on outflow of nutrients in streams allowed some = validation of the methodology.) More at http://wrweo.ca/wrweo2014/posts/2014/LetterWRWEOFeb12.pdf -------------------------------------------------------------------------= ----- From: David & Alison Webster <dwebster@glinx.com> To: naturens@chebucto.ns.ca=20 Sent: Sunday, December 27, 2015 7:11 AM Subject: Re: [NatureNS] Red Herring & Forestry Hi Nick & All Dec 27, 2015 A key question in this discussion is what fraction of soil calcium = is under consideration ? Is this exchangeable Ca and soil was sampled to = what depth ?=20 =20 Yt, DW, Kentville =20 ----- Original Message -----=20 From: Nicholas Hill=20 To: naturens@chebucto.ns.ca=20 Sent: Saturday, December 26, 2015 7:30 PM Subject: RE: [NatureNS] Red Herring & Forestry Steve, Bill Freedman had these data and Garbary and I referred to his paper = w Morash as well as to a paper on a fractional analysis from New = England. .conn..The take home message was that while biomass removal = removed 13% of the soil calcium in new England, a similar harvest = removed 27% of soil calcium in Nova Scotia. This story has another Dal connection: Barry Goldsmith, forest = ecologist who worked at Dal before Bill Freedman. Barry (FB Goldsmith, = we have lost touch) figured that on average NS forests had been cut over = 3 times. This figure is about right if we take a harvest once every 80 = years rate and we might increase this estimate (made in 1980) to 3.5 = times cut taking into account we are 36 years past his time and that = times between harvests have diminished. So with 27% loss of calcium per harvest and forests being cut over = more that 3 times, we could make a calculation of: A. Loss of Ca in NS forests (our cuts do not remove all biomass) And=20 B. How much worse shape we are in in comparison w Connecticut=20 So what? David Garbary and my finding (Botany in 2011) showed that NS has a = group of rare Appalachian herbs that are restricted to our highest = calcium forests; floodplains, even though in Appalachia they grow on = upland slopes. With climate change plant distributions will move north = but only if we have not exhausted our soils.=20 We should be able to do something with these data. Nick On Dec 24, 2015 4:52 PM, "Stephen Shaw" <srshaw@dal.ca> wrote: A question regarding Fred & Peter's point about loss of nutrients. In a natural deciduous forest of any type that has not been = harvested at all, for a 100-year old tree (say), what proportion of the = total recyclable nutrients per tree-area will have come from the = accumulated annual leaf fall (+ fallen dead branches + feasting = caterpillar, squirrel and woodpecker turds, etc), and what proportion = will be returned only after the woody trunk and main branches have = finally died, fallen down and decayed at age 100? If the first is dominant then the argument about loss of nutrients = by logging and tree removal is not strictly valid, whereas if the second = dominates, it is. I'm sure somebody must have looked at this carefully, and for = different types of forest and different soil types. Are the proportions = known? Steve ________________________________________ From: naturens-owner@chebucto.ns.ca = [naturens-owner@chebucto.ns.ca] on behalf of Fred Schueler = [bckcdb@istar.ca] Sent: Thursday, December 24, 2015 12:28 PM To: naturens@chebucto.ns.ca Subject: RE: [NatureNS] Red Herring & Forestry Quoting John and Nhung <nhungjohn@eastlink.ca>: > Yeah, I get the impression that the main problem with the Point = Tupper > monster is its size. A smaller operation might have fit in = quite nicely. > Of course, the NewPage surprise added to the mess, but mess it = is, and I > hope the government ad the operators can ramp back its biomass = consumption > to a more sensible, sustainable scale. * I was crafting a more complex reply to this thread, but I'll = just say that the problem with biomass harvesting from forests is to = get the nutrients removed in the wood back into the forest so = successive generation of trees can grow at a decent rate. We tried to deal = with this in our county forest here but certain foresters reacted so negatively to the question of fertilization that the advisory committee was illegally terminated as a consequence - but here's = our discussion of the nutrient question in forests that are having = wood removed - http://pinicola.ca/limnutr.htm - on sand and limestone = we've got very low intrinsic levels of nutrients, but the problem exists = in all woods if they're intensively exploited. fred. = =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D > > Fingers crossed for a mild winter, with minimum demand for = firewood! All > this tells me we still need to take solar heat and other = renewable sources > more seriously. > > -----Original Message----- > From: naturens-owner@chebucto.ns.ca = [mailto:naturens-owner@chebucto.ns.ca] > On Behalf Of Stephen Shaw > Sent: December 24, 2015 11:59 AM > To: naturens@chebucto.ns.ca > Subject: RE: [NatureNS] Red Herring & Forestry > > Ed Darby? Abraham Darby I around 1709 modified the blast = furnace that had > already been evolving for over a millenium, to consume coke = instead of > charcoal as the source of carbon that formed the carbon monoxide = used to > reduce raw iron oxide to pig iron, the starting point for other = iron > products. Charcoal gave a purer iron product, but making coke = from coal > proved much cheaper than making charcoal from harvested trees, = by then a > scarce commodity. For both charcoal and coke, a main byproduct = was/is CO2 > gas from the finally oxidised carbon, released into the = atmosphere. The > cheaper Darby coke method, later improved, caught on rapidly: a = gnomic irony > of this is that while saving some of the CO2-consuming much = diminished > forests from approaching extinction, it led rapidly to much = greater iron > production via burning fossil carbon that underpinned the = Industrial > Revolution in Britain, which in turn led to ever increasing CO2 = emissions, > eventually worldwide. > > On a lesser point not covered by reporter Aaron Beswick's = article in the C-H > that Dave referred to, if you had tried to get a few cords of = 16" cut > firewood for your wood stove in early 2015, as we did, you would = have found > that initially, none of the local suppliers around Halifax could = get any > logs, because they believed that such wood that had been = harvested was > nearly all going directly to Point Tupper biomass monster, = because that had > been built too large for the available supply of so-called = 'waste' wood and > bark. Central planning at its very best. Our supplier = eventually got some > logs from New Brunswick, but the price went up considerably. > Steve > ________________________________________ > From: naturens-owner@chebucto.ns.ca = [naturens-owner@chebucto.ns.ca] on > behalf of David & Alison Webster [dwebster@glinx.com] > Sent: Wednesday, December 23, 2015 7:12 PM > To: naturens@chebucto.ns.ca > Subject: Re: [NatureNS] Red Herring & Forestry > > Hi Nick & All, Dec 23, 2015 > I have only few minutes so will deal with the "gnomic" = question first > and return later to the rest. > It was a new word to me so I had to consult a dictionary = which referred > me to sententious=3D Aphoristic, pithy, given to the use of = maxims; (of > persons) =3D fond of pompous moralizing; maxim=3D A general = truth drawn from > science or experience. > I think we should both plead guilty to the "gnomic" charge = and be > flattered. As for the "pompous moralizing"; I am frequently = inclined to > quote the King James Bible but then remember: "Be not righteous = over much, > neither make thyself over wise: why shouldest thou destroy = thyself ?"; > Ecclesiastes 7:16; and decide not to. > > Merry Christmas All & A Happy New Year > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Nicholas Hill<mailto:fernhillns@gmail.com> > To: naturens@chebucto.ns.ca<mailto:naturens@chebucto.ns.ca> > Sent: Wednesday, December 23, 2015 4:32 PM > Subject: Re: [NatureNS] Red Herring & Forestry > > A friend recently accused me of being "gnomic", and ill-educated = lout as i > am, i took issue at being called a gnome, but moving into this = here case at > hand, I think the gnomes have it: "And warning that use of = biomass is not > green is perhaps already an effective way to indirectly kill = trees." Not > exactly gnomic but not entirely designed for clarity and = explicitness. Then > we have: "And if not now, then without doubt in the future." = This non > sentence leaves us without a doubt in the future waiting with = and like Godot > for some Christmas clarety. > > Seriously, I see Dave's point and Jamie's. England found a way = through > Edward Darby to stop using beech trees for coking to make steel; = Darby > figured out how to substitute coal for wood and thank god = because England > had run out of most decent sized trees and was charcoaling most = of its > forests. David is right that the first quotation is an = overstatement but > Jamie's point was most welcome in today's Herald. We not only = are running > the risk of losing good forest but we are running down our = forest soils so > that tree regrowth is poor, forest composition is weedy, = wildlife suffers, > and the carbon balance (ie. that less carbon dioxide is being = emitted than > would be if we allowed forests to grow and used conventional = fossil fuels in > the most efficient manner) is questionable. We want to move away = from > "Green" that is not sustainable for wildlife and I would put = biomass and > large scale hydroelectric both in that unsustainable class. > > Good on David and Jamie, the environmental critic and the = advocate. > > Merry Christmas guys > > Nick > > On Wed, Dec 23, 2015 at 2:56 PM, David & Alison Webster > <dwebster@glinx.com<mailto:dwebster@glinx.com>> wrote: > Dear All, Dec 23, 2015 > There is an article on biomass in today's Chron. Hrld. page = A3 "Biomass > may be less than green: report". I could not see how to extract = a link to > this article. > The warning was issued some years ago to "Beware of false = prophets" and > if this article is at all accurate then Jamie Simpson and Aaron = Ward may > qualify to some extent. > These biomass plants leave much to be desired and = constructive criticism > will hopefully lead to better context integration in future but = saying that > "...the province is not capable of proving that harvesting for = biomass is > better for the environment than burning coal." is misleading in = the extreme. > First of all it is an example of deplorable prose because = superficially > it would appear to say that burning biomass for power is no = better for the > environment than burning coal. Unless huge amounts of CO2 are = released in > the course of cutting, hauling and preparation for burning then = the above > would be false. > But burning of biomass is not mentioned; only harvesting = for biomass is > mentioned in that quote. And true enough "harvesting for = biomass" uses > energy for no purpose if the biomass is not subsequently burned = and would > not help the environment in any way. And the province, being = just an area of > land would be unable to prove anything. > > Getting back to the heart of this question; when a tree = which has fixed > carbon for say 100 years is cut down, it is entirely correct = that another > tree of equal size and carbon content does not spring up to = replace it in > less than 100 years (unless a faster growing tree is planted). = So yes there > often is an apparent lag. But if done astutely, say by thinning = overstocked > trees sufficiently early, then this apparent lag will shrink = nearly to zero. > And this may be repeated on the same ground two or more times = depending upon > details. > > But what are the alternatives ? If a tree dies and rots in = the forest > then all of the carbon is eventually released as CO2 after being = recycled > through a host of fungi, insects , etc. In event of forest fire = then huge > amounts of CO2 are released in one slug. And some may have = noticed that > large areas of western forest were burned this year; (some = carbon bank). > > Going back to that 100 year old tree which was cut, and = standing back a > bit, it can be seen that the perceived lag in carbon capture is = an illusion. > The carbon has already been captured. The tree, over the period = of its life > fixed carbon and atmospheric carbon was decreased accordingly. = Even if that > entire tree is burned; trunk, branches and all roots, the amount = of CO2 > released can not exceed the amount which that tree has fixed. So = the true > lag is zero. > > There is more than one way to kill a tree. I became alarmed = about 1990 > because Spruce trees, normally long lived, were starting to die = prematurely. > At first I suspected air pollution and this may be in play to = some extent. > But over time I have became convinced that moisture stress was = the dominant > cause. Trees evolved for loss of feeder roots. As moisture = is extracted > to the wilting point, at a given level, death of feeder roots = will soon > follow and when moisture is replenished a new set of feeder = roots will > eventually develop. And long periods without rainfall in NS go = way back, as > growth rings here record, but if repeated too frequently then = trees become > overwhelmed by fungi invading dead extension roots leading to = invasion of > major roots. > I don't have the figures extracted to prove it, but I think = climate > change has already led to more erratic precipitation during the = growing > season here. > And warning that use of biomass is not green is perhaps = already an > effective way to indirectly kill trees. And if not now, then = without doubt > in the future. > > Yt, Dave Webster, Kentville > > > No virus found in this message. > Checked by AVG - www.avg.com<http://www.avg.com> > Version: 2016.0.7294 / Virus Database: 4489/11241 - Release = Date: 12/23/15 > > > --- > This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus = software. > https://www.avast.com/antivirus > > ------------------------------------------------------------ Frederick W. Schueler & Aleta Karstad Mudpuppy Night - http://pinicola.ca/mudpup1.htm Vulnerable Watersheds - http://vulnerablewaters.blogspot.ca/ study our books - http://pinicola.ca/books/index.htm RR#2 Bishops Mills, Ontario, Canada K0G 1T0 on the Smiths Falls Limestone Plain 44* 52'N 75* 42'W (613)258-3107 <bckcdb at istar.ca> http://pinicola.ca/ "[The] two fundamental steps of scientific thought - the = conjecture and refutation of Popper - have little place in the usual = conception of intelligence. If something is to be dismissed as inadequate, it = is surely not Darwin [, whose] works manifest the activity of a mind seeking for wisdom, a value which conventional philosophy has = largely abandoned." Ghiselen, 1969. Triumph of the Darwinian Method, p = 237. ------------------------------------------------------------ No virus found in this message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 2016.0.7294 / Virus Database: 4489/11261 - Release Date: = 12/26/15 No virus found in this message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 2016.0.7294 / Virus Database: 4489/11320 - Release Date: = 01/04/16 ------=_NextPart_000_2FC3_01D14A3E.5F441460 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable =EF=BB=BF<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.0 Transitional//EN"> <HTML><HEAD> <META content=3D"text/html; charset=3Dutf-8" http-equiv=3DContent-Type> <META name=3DGENERATOR content=3D"MSHTML 8.00.6001.23588"></HEAD> <BODY bgColor=3D#ffffff> <DIV>Hi David P. & Nick, =20 Jan 8, = 2006</DIV> <DIV> After much delay dealing with numerous side = matters I=20 read both of your e-mails of Dec 27, 2015. Given access to relevant = research results from two or more independent sources, the full papers, = not just=20 a summary of a summary of an executive summary, I am prepared to believe = anything; provided I have good reason to believe that the researchers in = question have done their homework. And in all such matters Murphy's Law = never=20 sleeps. </DIV> <DIV> Alex McKeague of Ottawa (in the 80s ?) = distributed=20 subsamples of thoroughly validated soil samples to interested = labs,=20 assigned code letters to each lab involved, so the outliers = could=20 avoid embarassment, and then reported all results back to those = involved.=20 He did this at least twice using different samples. The range in results = was=20 astounding and Ca, drawing on memory, had great scatter.</DIV> <DIV> It would be helpful if you each could send me a = pdf file=20 of the two most complete papers.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>YT, DW</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <BLOCKQUOTE=20 style=3D"BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; = PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px"=20 dir=3Dltr> <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial">----- Original Message ----- </DIV> <DIV=20 style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial; BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; font-color: = black"><B>From:</B>=20 <A title=3Ddavidgpatriquin@yahoo.ca = href=3D"mailto:davidgpatriquin@yahoo.ca">David=20 Patriquin</A> </DIV> <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>To:</B> <A = title=3Dnaturens@chebucto.ns.ca=20 href=3D"mailto:naturens@chebucto.ns.ca">naturens@chebucto.ns.ca</A> = </DIV> <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Sent:</B> Sunday, December 27, 2015 = 7:51=20 AM</DIV> <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Subject:</B> Re: [NatureNS] Red = Herring &=20 Forestry - calcium exchangeable etc</DIV> <DIV><BR></DIV> <DIV=20 style=3D"BACKGROUND-COLOR: #fff; FONT-FAMILY: HelveticaNeue, Helvetica = Neue, Helvetica, Arial, Lucida Grande, sans-serif; COLOR: #000; = FONT-SIZE: 13px"> <DIV dir=3Dltr id=3Dyui_3_16_0_1_1451215827128_4951><SPAN=20 id=3Dyui_3_16_0_1_1451215827128_5025>The studies/modelling=20 by </SPAN> Ouimet, Clair & others related to acid = rain'=20 & Noseworthy's thesis examining forest biomass harvesting = include=20 calculation of "Exceedances"which occur when the removal of basic = cations=20 by acid rain exceed the additions though atmospheric deposition and = weathering=20 of rocks....</DIV> <DIV dir=3Dltr id=3Dyui_3_16_0_1_1451215827128_4951><BR></DIV> <DIV dir=3Dltr id=3Dyui_3_16_0_1_1451215827128_4951>The Noseworthy = research,=20 incorporated more detailed local information than the Ouillet et = al.study and made an upward revision of the estimate of the area of = Nova=20 Scotia mapped in exceedance from 39.9% to 73%. This is simply not good = news=20 for Nova Scotia: even with no harvesting, soil fertility under 73% of = our=20 forests will continue to decline because of acid rain.</DIV> <DIV dir=3Dltr id=3Dyui_3_16_0_1_1451215827128_4951><BR></DIV> <DIV dir=3Dltr id=3Dyui_3_16_0_1_1451215827128_4951>Noseworthy = presents results=20 for calculations of sustainable harvest rates across Kejimkujik = National Park=20 for harvesting with and without base-cation depletions....* Although = not=20 specifically discussed in this context, the results can be interpreted = as=20 indicating that limited selective harvest schemes, but not clearcuts, = would be=20 sustainable for most of that area. Such a conclusion would likely = apply also=20 to the Bowater St. Margaret=E2=80=99s Bay Lands which have similar = geology, and indeed=20 probably to most of Nova Scotia forests.</DIV> <DIV dir=3Dltr id=3Dyui_3_16_0_1_1451215827128_4951><BR></DIV> <DIV dir=3Dltr id=3Dyui_3_16_0_1_1451215827128_4951>(*There is no = assumption that=20 there would be commercial harvesting in Keji - details for Keji but = not other=20 areas are apparently given because there are no commercial interests = in it as=20 it is a protected area; also exisiting data on outflow of nutrients in = streams=20 allowed some validation of the methodology.)</DIV> <DIV dir=3Dltr id=3Dyui_3_16_0_1_1451215827128_4951><BR></DIV> <DIV dir=3Dltr id=3Dyui_3_16_0_1_1451215827128_4951>More at <A=20 id=3Dyui_3_16_0_1_1451215827128_6573=20 = href=3D"http://wrweo.ca/wrweo2014/posts/2014/LetterWRWEOFeb12.pdf">http:/= /wrweo.ca/wrweo2014/posts/2014/LetterWRWEOFeb12.pdf</A><BR></DIV> <DIV></DIV> <DIV id=3Dyui_3_16_0_1_1451215827128_4976> </DIV> <DIV id=3Dyui_3_16_0_1_1451215827128_4933 = class=3Dsignature><BR></DIV><BR> <DIV id=3Dyui_3_16_0_1_1451215827128_4947 = class=3DqtdSeparateBR><BR><BR></DIV> <DIV style=3D"DISPLAY: block" id=3Dyui_3_16_0_1_1451215827128_4944=20 class=3Dyahoo_quoted> <DIV=20 style=3D"FONT-FAMILY: HelveticaNeue, Helvetica Neue, Helvetica, Arial, = Lucida Grande, sans-serif; FONT-SIZE: 13px"=20 id=3Dyui_3_16_0_1_1451215827128_4943> <DIV=20 style=3D"FONT-FAMILY: HelveticaNeue, Helvetica Neue, Helvetica, Arial, = Lucida Grande, sans-serif; FONT-SIZE: 16px"=20 id=3Dyui_3_16_0_1_1451215827128_4942> <DIV dir=3Dltr id=3Dyui_3_16_0_1_1451215827128_4941><FONT=20 id=3Dyui_3_16_0_1_1451215827128_4940 size=3D2 face=3DArial> <HR id=3Dyui_3_16_0_1_1451215827128_5866 SIZE=3D1> <B><SPAN style=3D"FONT-WEIGHT: bold">From:</SPAN></B> David & = Alison Webster=20 <dwebster@glinx.com><BR><B><SPAN=20 style=3D"FONT-WEIGHT: bold">To:</SPAN></B> naturens@chebucto.ns.ca = <BR><B><SPAN=20 style=3D"FONT-WEIGHT: bold">Sent:</SPAN></B> Sunday, December 27, 2015 = 7:11=20 AM<BR><B><SPAN style=3D"FONT-WEIGHT: bold">Subject:</SPAN></B> Re: = [NatureNS]=20 Red Herring & Forestry<BR></FONT></DIV> <DIV id=3Dyui_3_16_0_1_1451215827128_5864 class=3Dy_msg_container><BR> <DIV id=3Dyiv7108882142> <STYLE></STYLE> <DIV id=3Dyui_3_16_0_1_1451215827128_6534> <DIV id=3Dyui_3_16_0_1_1451215827128_6555>Hi Nick & = All =20 = =20 Dec 27, = 2015</DIV> <DIV id=3Dyui_3_16_0_1_1451215827128_6553> A key = question in=20 this discussion is what fraction of soil calcium is under = consideration ? Is=20 this exchangeable Ca and soil was sampled to what depth ? </DIV> <DIV id=3Dyui_3_16_0_1_1451215827128_6551> </DIV> <DIV id=3Dyui_3_16_0_1_1451215827128_6549>Yt, DW, Kentville</DIV> <DIV id=3Dyui_3_16_0_1_1451215827128_6547> </DIV> <DIV id=3Dyui_3_16_0_1_1451215827128_6545> </DIV> <DIV id=3Dyui_3_16_0_1_1451215827128_6543> </DIV> <DIV id=3Dyui_3_16_0_1_1451215827128_6541>----- Original Message ----- = </DIV> <BLOCKQUOTE=20 style=3D"BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; = PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px"=20 dir=3Dltr id=3Dyui_3_16_0_1_1451215827128_6533> <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial; BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4"=20 id=3Dyui_3_16_0_1_1451215827128_6538><B>From:</B> <A=20 title=3Dfernhillns@gmail.com href=3D"mailto:fernhillns@gmail.com" = rel=3Dnofollow=20 target=3D_blank title-off=3D"" = ymailto=3D"mailto:fernhillns@gmail.com">Nicholas=20 Hill</A> </DIV> <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial" = id=3Dyui_3_16_0_1_1451215827128_6536><B>To:</B>=20 <A title=3Dnaturens@chebucto.ns.ca = href=3D"mailto:naturens@chebucto.ns.ca"=20 rel=3Dnofollow target=3D_blank title-off=3D""=20 = ymailto=3D"mailto:naturens@chebucto.ns.ca">naturens@chebucto.ns.ca</A> = </DIV> <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"=20 id=3Dyui_3_16_0_1_1451215827128_6532><B>Sent:</B> Saturday, December = 26, 2015=20 7:30 PM</DIV> <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Subject:</B> RE: [NatureNS] Red = Herring=20 & Forestry</DIV> <DIV><BR></DIV> <DIV dir=3Dltr>Steve,<BR>Bill Freedman had these data and Garbary = and I=20 referred to his paper w Morash as well as to a paper on a fractional = analysis from New England. .conn..The take home message was that = while=20 biomass removal removed 13% of the soil calcium in new = England, a=20 similar harvest removed 27% of soil calcium in Nova Scotia.</DIV> <DIV dir=3Dltr>This story has another Dal connection: Barry = Goldsmith, forest=20 ecologist who worked at Dal before Bill Freedman. Barry (FB = Goldsmith, we=20 have lost touch) figured that on average NS forests had been cut = over 3=20 times. This figure is about right if we take a harvest once every 80 = years=20 rate and we might increase this estimate (made in 1980) to 3.5 times = cut=20 taking into account we are 36 years past his time and that times = between=20 harvests have diminished.</DIV> <DIV dir=3Dltr>So with 27% loss of calcium per harvest and = forests being=20 cut over more that 3 times, we could make a calculation of:</DIV> <DIV dir=3Dltr>A. Loss of Ca in NS forests (our cuts do not remove = all=20 biomass)<BR>And <BR>B. How much worse shape we are in in comparison = w=20 Connecticut </DIV> <DIV dir=3Dltr>So what?</DIV> <DIV dir=3Dltr>David Garbary and my finding (Botany in 2011) showed = that NS=20 has a group of rare Appalachian herbs that are restricted to our = highest=20 calcium forests; floodplains, even though in Appalachia they grow on = upland=20 slopes. With climate change plant distributions will move north but = only if=20 we have not exhausted our soils. </DIV> <DIV dir=3Dltr>We should be able to do something with these = data.</DIV> <DIV dir=3Dltr>Nick</DIV> <DIV class=3Dyiv7108882142gmail_quote>On Dec 24, 2015 4:52 PM, = "Stephen Shaw"=20 <<A href=3D"mailto:srshaw@dal.ca" rel=3Dnofollow target=3D_blank=20 ymailto=3D"mailto:srshaw@dal.ca">srshaw@dal.ca</A>> wrote:<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE=20 style=3D"BORDER-LEFT: #ccc 1px solid; MARGIN: 0px 0px 0px 0.8ex; = PADDING-LEFT: 1ex"=20 class=3Dyiv7108882142gmail_quote>A question regarding Fred & = Peter's=20 point about loss of nutrients.<BR>In a natural deciduous forest of = any=20 type that has not been harvested at all, for a 100-year old tree = (say),=20 what proportion of the total recyclable nutrients per tree-area = will have=20 come from the accumulated annual leaf fall (+ fallen dead branches = +=20 feasting caterpillar, squirrel and woodpecker turds, etc), and = what=20 proportion will be returned only after the woody trunk and main = branches=20 have finally died, fallen down and decayed at age 100?<BR>If the = first is=20 dominant then the argument about loss of nutrients by logging and = tree=20 removal is not strictly valid, whereas if the second dominates, it = is.<BR><BR>I'm sure somebody must have looked at this carefully, = and for=20 different types of forest and different soil types. Are the=20 proportions=20 = known?<BR>Steve<BR>________________________________________<BR>From: <A=20 href=3D"mailto:naturens-owner@chebucto.ns.ca" rel=3Dnofollow = target=3D_blank=20 = ymailto=3D"mailto:naturens-owner@chebucto.ns.ca">naturens-owner@chebucto.= ns.ca</A>=20 [<A href=3D"mailto:naturens-owner@chebucto.ns.ca" rel=3Dnofollow = target=3D_blank=20 = ymailto=3D"mailto:naturens-owner@chebucto.ns.ca">naturens-owner@chebucto.= ns.ca</A>]=20 on behalf of Fred Schueler [<A href=3D"mailto:bckcdb@istar.ca" = rel=3Dnofollow=20 target=3D_blank=20 ymailto=3D"mailto:bckcdb@istar.ca">bckcdb@istar.ca</A>]<BR>Sent: = Thursday,=20 December 24, 2015 12:28 PM<BR>To: <A = href=3D"mailto:naturens@chebucto.ns.ca"=20 rel=3Dnofollow target=3D_blank=20 = ymailto=3D"mailto:naturens@chebucto.ns.ca">naturens@chebucto.ns.ca</A><BR= >Subject:=20 RE: [NatureNS] Red Herring & Forestry<BR><BR>Quoting John and = Nhung=20 <<A href=3D"mailto:nhungjohn@eastlink.ca" rel=3Dnofollow = target=3D_blank=20 = ymailto=3D"mailto:nhungjohn@eastlink.ca">nhungjohn@eastlink.ca</A>>:<B= R><BR>>=20 Yeah, I get the impression that the main problem with the Point=20 Tupper<BR>> monster is its size. A smaller operation = might have=20 fit in quite nicely.<BR>> Of course, the NewPage surprise added = to the=20 mess, but mess it is, and I<BR>> hope the government ad the = operators=20 can ramp back its biomass consumption<BR>> to a more sensible,=20 sustainable scale.<BR><BR>* I was crafting a more complex reply to = this=20 thread, but I'll just<BR>say that the problem with biomass = harvesting from=20 forests is to get<BR>the nutrients removed in the wood back into = the=20 forest so successive<BR>generation of trees can grow at a decent = rate. We=20 tried to deal with<BR>this in our county forest here but certain = foresters=20 reacted so<BR>negatively to the question of fertilization that the = advisory<BR>committee was illegally terminated as a consequence - = but=20 here's our<BR>discussion of the nutrient question in forests that = are=20 having wood<BR>removed - <A = href=3D"http://pinicola.ca/limnutr.htm"=20 rel=3Dnofollow target=3D_blank>http://pinicola.ca/limnutr.htm</A> = - on sand=20 and limestone we've<BR>got very low intrinsic levels of nutrients, = but the=20 problem exists in<BR>all woods if they're intensively=20 = exploited.<BR><BR>fred.<BR>=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D<BR>><BR>>=20 Fingers crossed for a mild winter, with minimum demand for = firewood! =20 All<BR>> this tells me we still need to take solar heat and = other=20 renewable sources<BR>> more seriously.<BR>><BR>> = -----Original=20 Message-----<BR>> From: <A = href=3D"mailto:naturens-owner@chebucto.ns.ca"=20 rel=3Dnofollow target=3D_blank=20 = ymailto=3D"mailto:naturens-owner@chebucto.ns.ca">naturens-owner@chebucto.= ns.ca</A>=20 [mailto:<A href=3D"mailto:naturens-owner@chebucto.ns.ca" = rel=3Dnofollow=20 target=3D_blank=20 = ymailto=3D"mailto:naturens-owner@chebucto.ns.ca">naturens-owner@chebucto.= ns.ca</A>]<BR>>=20 On Behalf Of Stephen Shaw<BR>> Sent: December 24, 2015 11:59 = AM<BR>>=20 To: <A href=3D"mailto:naturens@chebucto.ns.ca" rel=3Dnofollow = target=3D_blank=20 = ymailto=3D"mailto:naturens@chebucto.ns.ca">naturens@chebucto.ns.ca</A><BR= >>=20 Subject: RE: [NatureNS] Red Herring & Forestry<BR>><BR>> = Ed=20 Darby? Abraham Darby I around 1709 modified the blast = furnace=20 that had<BR>> already been evolving for over a millenium, to = consume=20 coke instead of<BR>> charcoal as the source of carbon that = formed the=20 carbon monoxide used to<BR>> reduce raw iron oxide to pig iron, = the=20 starting point for other iron<BR>> products. = Charcoal gave=20 a purer iron product, but making coke from coal<BR>> proved = much=20 cheaper than making charcoal from harvested trees, by then = a<BR>>=20 scarce commodity. For both charcoal and coke, a main = byproduct=20 was/is CO2<BR>> gas from the finally oxidised carbon, released = into the=20 atmosphere. The<BR>> cheaper Darby coke method, = later=20 improved, caught on rapidly: a gnomic irony<BR>> of this is = that while=20 saving some of the CO2-consuming much diminished<BR>> forests = from=20 approaching extinction, it led rapidly to much greater = iron<BR>>=20 production via burning fossil carbon that underpinned the=20 Industrial<BR>> Revolution in Britain, which in turn led to = ever=20 increasing CO2 emissions,<BR>> eventually = worldwide.<BR>><BR>> On=20 a lesser point not covered by reporter Aaron Beswick's article in = the=20 C-H<BR>> that Dave referred to, if you had tried to get a few = cords of=20 16" cut<BR>> firewood for your wood stove in early 2015, as we = did, you=20 would have found<BR>> that initially, none of the local = suppliers=20 around Halifax could get any<BR>> logs, because they believed = that such=20 wood that had been harvested was<BR>> nearly all going directly = to=20 Point Tupper biomass monster, because that had<BR>> been built = too=20 large for the available supply of so-called 'waste' wood = and<BR>>=20 bark. Central planning at its very best. Our supplier=20 eventually got some<BR>> logs from New Brunswick, but the price = went up=20 considerably.<BR>> Steve<BR>>=20 ________________________________________<BR>> From: <A=20 href=3D"mailto:naturens-owner@chebucto.ns.ca" rel=3Dnofollow = target=3D_blank=20 = ymailto=3D"mailto:naturens-owner@chebucto.ns.ca">naturens-owner@chebucto.= ns.ca</A>=20 [<A href=3D"mailto:naturens-owner@chebucto.ns.ca" rel=3Dnofollow = target=3D_blank=20 = ymailto=3D"mailto:naturens-owner@chebucto.ns.ca">naturens-owner@chebucto.= ns.ca</A>]=20 on<BR>> behalf of David & Alison Webster [<A=20 href=3D"mailto:dwebster@glinx.com" rel=3Dnofollow target=3D_blank=20 = ymailto=3D"mailto:dwebster@glinx.com">dwebster@glinx.com</A>]<BR>> = Sent:=20 Wednesday, December 23, 2015 7:12 PM<BR>> To: <A=20 href=3D"mailto:naturens@chebucto.ns.ca" rel=3Dnofollow = target=3D_blank=20 = ymailto=3D"mailto:naturens@chebucto.ns.ca">naturens@chebucto.ns.ca</A><BR= >>=20 Subject: Re: [NatureNS] Red Herring & Forestry<BR>><BR>> = Hi Nick=20 & All, Dec 23, = 2015<BR>> I have only few minutes so will = deal with=20 the "gnomic" question first<BR>> and return later to the=20 rest.<BR>> It was a new word to me so I had = to=20 consult a dictionary which referred<BR>> me to sententious=3D = Aphoristic,=20 pithy, given to the use of maxims; (of<BR>> persons) =3D fond = of pompous=20 moralizing; maxim=3D A general truth drawn from<BR>> science or = experience.<BR>> I think we should both = plead guilty=20 to the "gnomic" charge and be<BR>> flattered. As for the = "pompous=20 moralizing"; I am frequently inclined to<BR>> quote the King = James=20 Bible but then remember: "Be not righteous over much,<BR>> = neither make=20 thyself over wise: why shouldest thou destroy thyself ?";<BR>>=20 Ecclesiastes 7:16; and decide not to.<BR>><BR>> Merry = Christmas All=20 & A Happy New Year<BR>><BR>> ----- Original Message=20 -----<BR>> From: Nicholas Hill<mailto:<A=20 href=3D"mailto:fernhillns@gmail.com" rel=3Dnofollow = target=3D_blank=20 = ymailto=3D"mailto:fernhillns@gmail.com">fernhillns@gmail.com</A>><BR>&= gt;=20 To: <A href=3D"mailto:naturens@chebucto.ns.ca" rel=3Dnofollow = target=3D_blank=20 = ymailto=3D"mailto:naturens@chebucto.ns.ca">naturens@chebucto.ns.ca</A><= ;mailto:<A=20 href=3D"mailto:naturens@chebucto.ns.ca" rel=3Dnofollow = target=3D_blank=20 = ymailto=3D"mailto:naturens@chebucto.ns.ca">naturens@chebucto.ns.ca</A>>= ;<BR>>=20 Sent: Wednesday, December 23, 2015 4:32 PM<BR>> Subject: Re: = [NatureNS]=20 Red Herring & Forestry<BR>><BR>> A friend recently = accused me of=20 being "gnomic", and ill-educated lout as i<BR>> am, i took = issue at=20 being called a gnome, but moving into this here case at<BR>> = hand, I=20 think the gnomes have it: "And warning that use of biomass is = not<BR>>=20 green is perhaps already an effective way to indirectly kill = trees."=20 Not<BR>> exactly gnomic but not entirely designed for clarity = and=20 explicitness. Then<BR>> we have: "And if not now, then without = doubt in=20 the future." This non<BR>> sentence leaves us without a doubt = in the=20 future waiting with and like Godot<BR>> for some Christmas=20 clarety.<BR>><BR>> Seriously, I see Dave's point and = Jamie's.=20 England found a way through<BR>> Edward Darby to stop using = beech trees=20 for coking to make steel; Darby<BR>> figured out how to = substitute coal=20 for wood and thank god because England<BR>> had run out of most = decent=20 sized trees and was charcoaling most of its<BR>> forests. David = is=20 right that the first quotation is an overstatement but<BR>> = Jamie's=20 point was most welcome in today's Herald. We not only are = running<BR>>=20 the risk of losing good forest but we are running down our forest = soils=20 so<BR>> that tree regrowth is poor, forest composition is = weedy,=20 wildlife suffers,<BR>> and the carbon balance (ie. that less = carbon=20 dioxide is being emitted than<BR>> would be if we allowed = forests to=20 grow and used conventional fossil fuels in<BR>> the most = efficient=20 manner) is questionable. We want to move away from<BR>> "Green" = that is=20 not sustainable for wildlife and I would put biomass and<BR>> = large=20 scale hydroelectric both in that unsustainable = class.<BR>><BR>> Good=20 on David and Jamie, the environmental critic and the=20 advocate.<BR>><BR>> Merry Christmas guys<BR>><BR>>=20 Nick<BR>><BR>> On Wed, Dec 23, 2015 at 2:56 PM, David & = Alison=20 Webster<BR>> <<A href=3D"mailto:dwebster@glinx.com" = rel=3Dnofollow=20 target=3D_blank=20 = ymailto=3D"mailto:dwebster@glinx.com">dwebster@glinx.com</A><mailto:<A= =20 href=3D"mailto:dwebster@glinx.com" rel=3Dnofollow target=3D_blank=20 = ymailto=3D"mailto:dwebster@glinx.com">dwebster@glinx.com</A>>>=20 wrote:<BR>> Dear All, = =20 Dec = 23,=20 2015<BR>> There is an article on biomass in = today's=20 Chron. Hrld. page A3 "Biomass<BR>> may be less than green: = report". I=20 could not see how to extract a link to<BR>> this = article.<BR>> =20 The warning was issued some years ago to "Beware of = false=20 prophets" and<BR>> if this article is at all accurate then = Jamie=20 Simpson and Aaron Ward may<BR>> qualify to some = extent.<BR>> =20 These biomass plants leave much to be desired and=20 constructive criticism<BR>> will hopefully lead to better = context=20 integration in future but saying that<BR>> "...the province is = not=20 capable of proving that harvesting for biomass is<BR>> better = for the=20 environment than burning coal." is misleading in the=20 extreme.<BR>> First of all it is an example = of=20 deplorable prose because superficially<BR>> it would appear to = say that=20 burning biomass for power is no better for the<BR>> environment = than=20 burning coal. Unless huge amounts of CO2 are released in<BR>> = the=20 course of cutting, hauling and preparation for burning then the=20 above<BR>> would be false.<BR>> But = burning of=20 biomass is not mentioned; only harvesting for biomass is<BR>> = mentioned=20 in that quote. And true enough "harvesting for biomass" = uses<BR>>=20 energy for no purpose if the biomass is not subsequently burned = and=20 would<BR>> not help the environment in any way. And the = province, being=20 just an area of<BR>> land would be unable to prove=20 anything.<BR>><BR>> Getting back to the = heart of=20 this question; when a tree which has fixed<BR>> carbon for say = 100=20 years is cut down, it is entirely correct that another<BR>> = tree of=20 equal size and carbon content does not spring up to replace it = in<BR>>=20 less than 100 years (unless a faster growing tree is planted). So = yes=20 there<BR>> often is an apparent lag. But if done astutely, say = by=20 thinning overstocked<BR>> trees sufficiently early, then this = apparent=20 lag will shrink nearly to zero.<BR>> And this may be repeated = on the=20 same ground two or more times depending upon<BR>>=20 details.<BR>><BR>> But what are the = alternatives=20 ? If a tree dies and rots in the forest<BR>> then all of the = carbon is=20 eventually released as CO2 after being recycled<BR>> through a = host of=20 fungi, insects , etc. In event of forest fire then huge<BR>> = amounts of=20 CO2 are released in one slug. And some may have noticed = that<BR>> large=20 areas of western forest were burned this year; (some carbon=20 bank).<BR>><BR>> Going back to that 100 = year old=20 tree which was cut, and standing back a<BR>> bit, it can be = seen that=20 the perceived lag in carbon capture is an illusion.<BR>> The = carbon has=20 already been captured. The tree, over the period of its = life<BR>> fixed=20 carbon and atmospheric carbon was decreased accordingly. Even if=20 that<BR>> entire tree is burned; trunk, branches and all roots, = the=20 amount of CO2<BR>> released can not exceed the amount which = that tree=20 has fixed. So the true<BR>> lag is zero.<BR>><BR>> = =20 There is more than one way to kill a tree. I became alarmed = about=20 1990<BR>> because Spruce trees, normally long lived, were = starting to=20 die prematurely.<BR>> At first I suspected air pollution and = this may=20 be in play to some extent.<BR>> But over time I have became = convinced=20 that moisture stress was the dominant<BR>> cause. =20 Trees evolved for loss of feeder roots. As moisture is=20 extracted<BR>> to the wilting point, at a given level, death of = feeder=20 roots will soon<BR>> follow and when moisture is replenished a = new set=20 of feeder roots will<BR>> eventually develop. And long periods = without=20 rainfall in NS go way back, as<BR>> growth rings here record, = but if=20 repeated too frequently then trees become<BR>> overwhelmed by = fungi=20 invading dead extension roots leading to invasion of<BR>> major = roots.<BR>> I don't have the figures = extracted to=20 prove it, but I think climate<BR>> change has already led to = more=20 erratic precipitation during the growing<BR>> season=20 here.<BR>> And warning that use of biomass = is not=20 green is perhaps already an<BR>> effective way to indirectly = kill=20 trees. And if not now, then without doubt<BR>> in the=20 future.<BR>><BR>> Yt, Dave Webster,=20 Kentville<BR>><BR>><BR>> No virus found in this = message.<BR>>=20 Checked by AVG - <A href=3D"http://www.avg.com/" rel=3Dnofollow=20 target=3D_blank>www.avg.com</A><<A href=3D"http://www.avg.com/" = rel=3Dnofollow target=3D_blank>http://www.avg.com</A>><BR>> = Version:=20 2016.0.7294 / Virus Database: 4489/11241 - Release Date:=20 12/23/15<BR>><BR>><BR>> ---<BR>> This email has been = checked=20 for viruses by Avast antivirus software.<BR>> <A=20 href=3D"https://www.avast.com/antivirus" rel=3Dnofollow=20 = target=3D_blank>https://www.avast.com/antivirus</A><BR>><BR>><BR><B= R><BR><BR><BR>-----------------------------------------------------------= -<BR> =20 Frederick W. Schueler & = Aleta=20 Karstad<BR> Mudpuppy Night - <A=20 href=3D"http://pinicola.ca/mudpup1.htm" rel=3Dnofollow=20 target=3D_blank>http://pinicola.ca/mudpup1.htm</A><BR>Vulnerable = Watersheds=20 - <A href=3D"http://vulnerablewaters.blogspot.ca/" rel=3Dnofollow=20 target=3D_blank>http://vulnerablewaters.blogspot.ca/</A><BR> = =20 study our books - <A = href=3D"http://pinicola.ca/books/index.htm"=20 rel=3Dnofollow=20 target=3D_blank>http://pinicola.ca/books/index.htm</A><BR> = =20 RR#2 Bishops Mills, Ontario, Canada K0G = 1T0<BR> on the Smiths Falls Limestone Plain 44* 52'N = 75*=20 42'W<BR> <A href=3D"" = rel=3Dnofollow>(613)258-3107</A>=20 <bckcdb at <A href=3D"http://istar.ca/" rel=3Dnofollow=20 target=3D_blank>istar.ca</A>> <A href=3D"http://pinicola.ca/" = rel=3Dnofollow=20 target=3D_blank>http://pinicola.ca/</A><BR>"[The] two fundamental = steps of=20 scientific thought - the conjecture<BR>and refutation of Popper - = have=20 little place in the usual conception<BR>of intelligence. If = something is=20 to be dismissed as inadequate, it is<BR>surely not Darwin [, = whose] works=20 manifest the activity of a mind<BR>seeking for wisdom, a value = which=20 conventional philosophy has largely<BR>abandoned." Ghiselen, 1969. = Triumph=20 of the Darwinian Method, p=20 = 237.<BR>------------------------------------------------------------<BR><= BR><BR></BLOCKQUOTE></DIV><A=20 href=3D"" rel=3Dnofollow></A> <DIV align=3Dleft>No virus found in this message.<BR>Checked by AVG = - <A=20 href=3D"http://www.avg.com/" rel=3Dnofollow=20 target=3D_blank>www.avg.com</A><BR>Version: 2016.0.7294 / Virus = Database:=20 4489/11261 - Release Date:=20 = 12/26/15</DIV></BLOCKQUOTE></DIV></DIV><BR><BR></DIV></DIV></DIV></DIV> <STYLE></STYLE> </DIV><A></A> <P align=3Dleft color=3D"#000000" avgcert??>No virus found in this=20 message.<BR>Checked by AVG - <A=20 href=3D"http://www.avg.com">www.avg.com</A><BR>Version: 2016.0.7294 / = Virus=20 Database: 4489/11320 - Release Date: = 01/04/16</P></BLOCKQUOTE></BODY></HTML> ------=_NextPart_000_2FC3_01D14A3E.5F441460--
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