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Dear All, Apr 5, 2015
I failed to make clear, in this previous post, that I agreed with =
Lance that birders should continue to record splits, in this case Hoary =
& Common Redpoll, even if the powers that be conclude (for the time =
being) that they are one species. Records of observably different forms =
can readily be pooled, if need be, but pooled observations can not be =
subsequently parsed.
My grasp of current Genetics is not especially firm but I fail to =
see how the.study (posted by Nancy R., below) shows these forms to be =
essentially identical. They apparently examined only 1% of the genome.=20
Even if the DNA of these1% samples are nearly identical it does not =
follow that the remaining 99% of the genome will have equally similar =
DNA. And the DNA code is comparable to the contents of a library; some =
retained for possible future need, some sequentially borrowed and read =
during development of the embryo and much that is not currently =
relevant.
And RNA of the two forms, the blueprints in current use, was more =
distinct. No doubt the two forms readily interbreed but recording =
variation over time and location might eventually be informative.
Who could have forseen that the large collection of birds' eggs at =
the London Museum would one day provide the conclusive proof which =
linked use of DDT with thinning of egg shells ?
Yt, Dave Webster, Kentville
----- Original Message -----=20
From: David & Alison Webster=20
To: naturens@chebucto.ns.ca=20
Sent: Tuesday, March 31, 2015 8:24 PM
Subject: Re: [NatureNS] Hoary and Common Redpolls one species?
Hi Lance & All, Mar 31, 2015
The recurrent lumping & splitting of many species clusters is =
perhaps an indirect consequence of the 'type specimen' concept. The =
notion being that, if you just do it carefully enough, all species can =
be defined in ways which are distinct from other similar species. This =
is just a form of looking in the dark closet for the black cat that is =
not there; and finding it.
As G.G. Simpson, Prof. of Vertebrate Paleontology at the Museum of =
Comparative Zoology of Harvard Univ., observed (1967, Biology and the =
Public Good) "...organisms cannot be truthfully or usefully considered =
in terms of types."=20
One should be prepared to accept that within some broadly defined =
species there may be many different branches which are not quite =
distinct and which, given the opportunity, can produce fertile =
offspring.
Yt, Dave Webster, Kentville
=20
----- Original Message -----=20
From: Laviolette, Lance (EXP)=20
To: naturens@chebucto.ns.ca=20
Sent: Tuesday, March 31, 2015 6:08 PM
Subject: RE: [NatureNS] Hoary and Common Redpolls one species?
Hi everyone,
=20
Ultimately the question of "what is a species" currently comes down to =
the determination of how much DNA difference is enough. The paper =
doesn't say that Hoary Redpolls and Common redpolls have identical DNA, =
it says that the DNA is extremely similar. Ultimately the American =
Ornithologists Union, which is the body which makes the final decision =
in North America, will decide if the DNA is similar enough to lump the =
two or not.
=20
There is certainly no harm in continuing to report the two 'forms' of =
redpolls regardless of the species status. The Ipswich form of the =
Savannah Sparrow is an example of this that is near and dear to the =
heart of Nova Scotia birders. Who knows, in the distant future new =
methods and/or decision makers may declare that the difference between =
Common and Hoary Redpolls is in fact not as similar as this paper has =
concluded. If that time arrives then people will wish they recorded them =
separately.
=20
All the best,
=20
Lance
=20
Lance Laviolette
Glen Robertson, Ontario
=20
=20
=20
From: naturens-owner@chebucto.ns.ca =
[mailto:naturens-owner@chebucto.ns.ca] On Behalf Of N Robinson
Sent: Tuesday, March 31, 2015 2:21 PM
To: naturens@chebucto.ns.ca
Subject: EXTERNAL: [NatureNS] Hoary and common redpolls one species?
=20
This just in:
=
http://blog.allaboutbirds.org/2015/03/30/from-many-one-how-many-species-o=
f-redpolls-are-there/
Nancy
No virus found in this message.
Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
Version: 2015.0.5863 / Virus Database: 4321/9424 - Release Date: =
03/31/15
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<DIV>Dear All, =20
=
=20
Apr 5, 2015</DIV>
<DIV> I failed to make clear, in this previous =
post, that=20
I agreed with Lance that birders should continue to record splits, in =
this case=20
Hoary & Common Redpoll, even if the powers that be conclude (for the =
time=20
being) that they are one species. Records of observably different =
forms can=20
readily be pooled, if need be, but pooled observations can not =
be=20
subsequently parsed.</DIV>
<DIV> My grasp of current Genetics is not especially =
firm but=20
I fail to see how the.study (posted by Nancy R., below) shows these =
forms to be=20
essentially identical. They apparently examined only 1% of the genome. =
</DIV>
<DIV> Even if the DNA of these1% samples are nearly =
identical=20
it does not follow that the remaining 99% of the =
genome will have=20
equally similar DNA. And the DNA code is comparable to the contents =
of a=20
library; some retained for possible future need, some sequentially =
borrowed and=20
read during development of the embryo and much that is not =
currently=20
relevant.</DIV>
<DIV> And RNA of the two forms, the =
blueprints in=20
current use, was more distinct. No doubt the two forms readily =
interbreed=20
but recording variation over time and location might eventually be=20
informative.</DIV>
<DIV> Who could have forseen that the large collection =
of=20
birds' eggs at the London Museum would one day provide the conclusive=20
proof which linked use of DDT with thinning of egg shells ?</DIV>
<DIV>Yt, Dave Webster, Kentville</DIV>
<DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial">----- Original Message -----=20
<DIV style=3D"BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; font-color: black"><B>From:</B> <A=20
title=3Ddwebster@glinx.com href=3D"mailto:dwebster@glinx.com">David =
& Alison=20
Webster</A> </DIV>
<DIV><B>To:</B> <A title=3Dnaturens@chebucto.ns.ca=20
href=3D"mailto:naturens@chebucto.ns.ca">naturens@chebucto.ns.ca</A> =
</DIV>
<DIV><B>Sent:</B> Tuesday, March 31, 2015 8:24 PM</DIV>
<DIV><B>Subject:</B> Re: [NatureNS] Hoary and Common Redpolls one=20
species?</DIV></DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV>
<DIV>Hi Lance & All, =
=20
=
=20
Mar 31, 2015</DIV>
<DIV> The recurrent lumping & splitting of =
many=20
species clusters is perhaps an indirect consequence of the 'type =
specimen'=20
concept. The notion being that, if you just do it carefully =
enough, all=20
species can be defined in ways which are distinct from other =
similar=20
species. This is just a form of looking in the dark closet for the black =
cat=20
that is not there; and finding it.</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV> As G.G. Simpson, Prof. of Vertebrate =
Paleontology at the=20
Museum of Comparative Zoology of Harvard Univ., observed (1967, =
Biology and=20
the Public Good) "...organisms cannot be truthfully or usefully =
considered in=20
terms of types." </DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV> One should be prepared to accept that within =
some=20
broadly defined species there may be many different branches which =
are not=20
quite distinct and which, given the opportunity, can produce fertile=20
offspring.</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>Yt, Dave Webster, Kentville</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE=20
style=3D"BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; =
PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px"=20
dir=3Dltr>
<DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial">----- Original Message ----- </DIV>
<DIV=20
style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial; BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; font-color: =
black"><B>From:</B>=20
<A title=3Dlance.laviolette@lmco.com=20
href=3D"mailto:lance.laviolette@lmco.com">Laviolette, Lance (EXP)</A> =
</DIV>
<DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>To:</B> <A =
title=3Dnaturens@chebucto.ns.ca=20
href=3D"mailto:naturens@chebucto.ns.ca">naturens@chebucto.ns.ca</A> =
</DIV>
<DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Sent:</B> Tuesday, March 31, 2015 =
6:08=20
PM</DIV>
<DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Subject:</B> RE: [NatureNS] Hoary =
and Common=20
Redpolls one species?</DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV>
<DIV class=3DWordSection1>
<P class=3DMsoNormal><SPAN=20
style=3D"FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri','sans-serif'; COLOR: #1f497d; =
FONT-SIZE: 11pt">Hi=20
everyone,<o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=3DMsoNormal><SPAN=20
style=3D"FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri','sans-serif'; COLOR: #1f497d; =
FONT-SIZE: 11pt"><o:p> </o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=3DMsoNormal><SPAN=20
style=3D"FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri','sans-serif'; COLOR: #1f497d; =
FONT-SIZE: 11pt">Ultimately=20
the question of =93what is a species=94 currently comes down to the =
determination=20
of how much DNA difference is enough. The paper doesn=92t say that =
Hoary=20
Redpolls and Common redpolls have identical DNA, it says that the DNA =
is=20
extremely similar. Ultimately the American Ornithologists Union, which =
is the=20
body which makes the final decision in North America, will decide if =
the DNA=20
is similar enough to lump the two or not.<o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=3DMsoNormal><SPAN=20
style=3D"FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri','sans-serif'; COLOR: #1f497d; =
FONT-SIZE: 11pt"><o:p> </o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=3DMsoNormal><SPAN=20
style=3D"FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri','sans-serif'; COLOR: #1f497d; =
FONT-SIZE: 11pt">There=20
is certainly no harm in continuing to report the two =91forms=92 of =
redpolls=20
regardless of the species status. The Ipswich form of the Savannah =
Sparrow is=20
an example of this that is near and dear to the heart of Nova Scotia =
birders.=20
Who knows, in the distant future new methods and/or decision makers =
may=20
declare that the difference between Common and Hoary Redpolls is in =
fact not=20
as similar as this paper has concluded. If that time arrives then =
people will=20
wish they recorded them separately.<o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=3DMsoNormal><SPAN=20
style=3D"FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri','sans-serif'; COLOR: #1f497d; =
FONT-SIZE: 11pt"><o:p> </o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=3DMsoNormal><SPAN=20
style=3D"FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri','sans-serif'; COLOR: #1f497d; =
FONT-SIZE: 11pt">All=20
the best,<o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=3DMsoNormal><SPAN=20
style=3D"FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri','sans-serif'; COLOR: #1f497d; =
FONT-SIZE: 11pt"><o:p> </o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=3DMsoNormal><SPAN=20
style=3D"FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri','sans-serif'; COLOR: #1f497d; =
FONT-SIZE: 11pt">Lance<o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=3DMsoNormal><SPAN=20
style=3D"FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri','sans-serif'; COLOR: #1f497d; =
FONT-SIZE: 11pt"><o:p> </o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=3DMsoNormal><B><SPAN=20
style=3D"FONT-FAMILY: 'Batang','serif'; COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-SIZE: =
14pt">Lance=20
Laviolette<o:p></o:p></SPAN></B></P>
<P class=3DMsoNormal><SPAN=20
style=3D"FONT-FAMILY: 'Batang','serif'; COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-SIZE: =
10pt">Glen=20
Robertson, Ontario<o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=3DMsoNormal><SPAN=20
style=3D"FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri','sans-serif'; COLOR: #1f497d; =
FONT-SIZE: 11pt"><o:p> </o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=3DMsoNormal><SPAN=20
style=3D"FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri','sans-serif'; COLOR: #1f497d; =
FONT-SIZE: 11pt"><o:p> </o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=3DMsoNormal><SPAN=20
style=3D"FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri','sans-serif'; COLOR: #1f497d; =
FONT-SIZE: 11pt"><o:p> </o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=3DMsoNormal><B><SPAN=20
style=3D"FONT-FAMILY: 'Tahoma','sans-serif'; FONT-SIZE: 10pt"=20
lang=3DEN-US>From:</SPAN></B><SPAN=20
style=3D"FONT-FAMILY: 'Tahoma','sans-serif'; FONT-SIZE: 10pt" =
lang=3DEN-US>=20
naturens-owner@chebucto.ns.ca [mailto:naturens-owner@chebucto.ns.ca] =
<B>On=20
Behalf Of </B>N Robinson<BR><B>Sent:</B> Tuesday, March 31, 2015 2:21=20
PM<BR><B>To:</B> naturens@chebucto.ns.ca<BR><B>Subject:</B> EXTERNAL:=20
[NatureNS] Hoary and common redpolls one =
species?<o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=3DMsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></P>
<DIV>
<DIV>
<P style=3D"MARGIN-BOTTOM: 12pt" class=3DMsoNormal>This just =
in:<BR><BR><A=20
=
href=3D"http://blog.allaboutbirds.org/2015/03/30/from-many-one-how-many-s=
pecies-of-redpolls-are-there/">http://blog.allaboutbirds.org/2015/03/30/f=
rom-many-one-how-many-species-of-redpolls-are-there/</A><o:p></o:p></P></=
DIV>
<P class=3DMsoNormal>Nancy<o:p></o:p></P></DIV></DIV><A></A>
<P align=3Dleft avgcert?? color=3D"#000000">No virus found in this=20
message.<BR>Checked by AVG - <A=20
href=3D"http://www.avg.com">www.avg.com</A><BR>Version: 2015.0.5863 / =
Virus=20
Database: 4321/9424 - Release Date: =
03/31/15</P></BLOCKQUOTE></BODY></HTML>
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