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Hi Jim,
Cut from welcome to naturens--
If you ever want to remove yourself from this mailing list,
you can send mail to <majordomo@chebucto.ns.ca> with the following
command in the body of your email message:
unsubscribe naturens=20
Leave the subject line blank.
Are you heading south for a while or fed up with recent traffic ?=20
Yt, DW
----- Original Message -----=20
From: jim.edsall=20
To: naturens@chebucto.ns.ca=20
Sent: Sunday, December 21, 2014 7:29 PM
Subject: [NatureNS] Re: Scope of NatureNS: Re: Long again: Re: Long: =
Re: [NatureNS] light
How does one unsubscribe from this list?
Jim Edsall
Check out my new website at http://jimedsall.com
-------- Original message --------
From: rita.paul@ns.sympatico.ca=20
Date: 12-21-2014 3:12 PM (GMT-04:00)=20
To: naturens@chebucto.ns.ca=20
Subject: Re: Scope of NatureNS: Re: Long again: Re: Long: Re: =
[NatureNS] light=20
=EF=BB=BF December 21, 2014 at 1:37 PM David & Alison Webster =
<dwebster@glinx.com> wrote:=20
Hi Dave=20
I take it your education has been somewhat lacking.=20
but I guess government so called scientists don't get out much!=20
Enjoy the holidays=20
Paul=20
Hi Paul,=20
My enigma machine is down so the thrust of your post is not =
clear. I have never heard of John Murtagh so you must know my nephew who =
has never heard of him either.=20
=20
Corn to ethanol was promoted as a carbon neutral fuel and, if =
produced using manure, elbow grease and ox or horse power then perhaps =
it gets close to that. But when it is produced using the intensive =
inputs of industrial agriculture then the overall system generates more =
carbon emission than use of petrochemicals without ethanol. And the =
subsidized ethanol fuel market resulted in less food corn production, =
higher food prices and hardship for those with a traditional diet high =
in corn.=20
=20
And I object to the insinuation that I selectively support only =
ideas generated by government employees because that is 100% off base. I =
judge ideas on merit not origin.=20
=20
I do however strongly support the value of Government funded =
science provided it is entirely free of pressure, especially political =
pressure. That resource in needed to keep industry somewhat honest and =
to act as an advisory source for government. A large amount in =
industrial research in the US is (or has been) actually funded by =
government to mutual advantage.=20
=20
Yt, Dave Webster, Kentville.=20
----- Original Message -----=20
From: rita.paul@ns.sympatico.ca=20
To: naturens@chebucto.ns.ca=20
Sent: Sunday, December 21, 2014 12:09 PM=20
Subject: Re: Scope of NatureNS: Re: Long again: Re: Long: Re: =
[NatureNS] light=20
=20
Interesting Dave=20
You say =EF=BB=BF corn to alcohol initiative was a disaster!=20
and then go on to say "But all to often some anticipated negative =
effect is enough to derail a undertaking that on balance would be very =
beneficial."=20
Seems to me that is what you want to do with the ethanol =
initiative.=20
Not many folks will recognize John Murtagh - a maritimer by choice =
for a few years.=20
One of the Maritimes leading scientists - I was lucky enough to =
work for=20
him before his breakthrough and that's not so long ago and now you =
want=20
to throw it out? I understand - he didn't work for the government! =
Enjoy early winter=20
Paul=20
On December 21, 2014 at 10:12 AM David & Alison Webster =
<dwebster@glinx.com> wrote:=20
Hi Fred, Dec 21, 2014=20
Good intentions have a way of goings astray; no doubt about =
that.=20
=20
Mandated targets for biodiesel e.g. led to rapid expansion =
of the tropical Palm Oil industry with ghastly human and environmental =
consequences. The corn to alcohol initiative in the US is another =
disaster.=20
=20
Tinkering with any complex system generates a need for rapid =
feedback and control so unforseen adverse consequences can be nipped in =
the bud. Otherwise an initiative will fly like one of Goddard's early =
rockets; squirm around until propulsion and gravity are acting in the =
same direction. Or in other words follow the course of least resistance. =
=20
Ideally one would apply resistance so action combines =
maximum positive effects with minimum negative. But all to often some =
anticipated negative effect is enough to derail a undertaking that on =
balance would be very beneficial.=20
=20
Yt, Dave Webster, Kentville=20
=20
=20
.=20
----- Original Message -----=20
From: Fred Schueler=20
To: naturens@chebucto.ns.ca=20
Sent: Saturday, December 20, 2014 9:00 PM=20
Subject: Re: Scope of NatureNS: Re: Long again: Re: Long: Re: =
[NatureNS] light=20
=20
On 12/20/2014 6:33 PM, David & Alison Webster wrote:=20
=20
Opposition to wind generation has often come strangely =
enough from Naturalists; organizations or individuals. This was helped I =
expect by a famous site in California that was set in a raptor migration =
channel in a mountain pass by, what a concidence, a Petrochemical =
Company.=20
* experience in Ontario has been that these "green" energy =
projects are often put in by ecologically insensitive firms, prompting =
the new provincial motto of Ontario "green is black." =
http://www.saveostranderpoint.org/#sthash.LufTSMYD.dpbs is a tale of a =
wind farm in an "important bird area" where the Ministry of the =
Environment joined the "proponent's" appeal of a decision that the =
project posed an unacceptable risk to a SAR, and the whole basis of the =
Ontario Rivers Alliance http://www.ontarioriversalliance.ca/ was "green =
is black" mesoscale hydro projects that were to be blotted all across =
the norther part of the province - =
http://karstaddailypaintings.blogspot.ca/2012/10/precious-wild-rivers-cal=
endar-for-2013.html - see my comments. Another instance of this =
single-purpose insensitivity is the solar farms that are put in with no =
concern for Species at Risk that might be encouraged to live among the =
panels.=20
Just as is the case with massive certified-organic =
agriculture, if we're going to have green infrastructure it must be =
green all the way down - which will require substantial re-education of =
the industrial/financial sorts - it's not enough that politicians =
respond to the need to make alternative sources of energy useable - =
these installations must be installed with ecological sensitivity to the =
local sites, and in consultation with the local Human population.=20
fred.=20
--=20
------------------------------------------------------------
Frederick W. Schueler & Aleta Karstad
Daily Paintings - http://karstaddailypaintings.blogspot.com/
Vulnerable Watersheds - http://vulnerablewaters.blogspot.ca/
Mudpuppy Night in Oxford Mills - http://pinicola.ca/mudpup1.htm
RR#2 Bishops Mills, Ontario, Canada K0G 1T0
on the Smiths Falls Limestone Plain 44* 52'N 75* 42'W
(613)258-3107 <bckcdb at istar.ca> http://pinicola.ca/
------------------------------------------------------------
No virus found in this message.
Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
Version: 2015.0.5577 / Virus Database: 4253/8775 - Release =
Date: 12/20/14
=20
No virus found in this message.
Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
Version: 2015.0.5577 / Virus Database: 4253/8778 - Release Date: =
12/21/14
=20
No virus found in this message.
Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
Version: 2015.0.5577 / Virus Database: 4253/8781 - Release Date: =
12/21/14
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<DIV>Hi Jim,</DIV>
<DIV> Cut from welcome to naturens--</DIV>
<DIV> If you ever want to remove yourself from this =
mailing=20
list,<BR>you can send mail to <<A =
href=3D"">majordomo@chebucto.ns.ca</A>>=20
with the following<BR>command in the body of your email=20
message:<BR><BR> unsubscribe naturens </DIV>
<DIV>Leave the subject line blank.</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV> Are you heading south for a while or fed up with =
recent=20
traffic ? </DIV>
<DIV>Yt, DW</DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE=20
style=3D"BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; =
PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px"=20
dir=3Dltr>
<DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial">----- Original Message ----- </DIV>
<DIV=20
style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial; BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; font-color: =
black"><B>From:</B>=20
<A title=3Djim.edsall@bellaliant.net=20
href=3D"mailto:jim.edsall@bellaliant.net">jim.edsall</A> </DIV>
<DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>To:</B> <A =
title=3Dnaturens@chebucto.ns.ca=20
href=3D"mailto:naturens@chebucto.ns.ca">naturens@chebucto.ns.ca</A> =
</DIV>
<DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Sent:</B> Sunday, December 21, 2014 =
7:29=20
PM</DIV>
<DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Subject:</B> [NatureNS] Re: Scope =
of=20
NatureNS: Re: Long again: Re: Long: Re: [NatureNS] light</DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV>
<DIV>How does one unsubscribe from this list?</DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV>
<DIV>
<DIV style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 100%">Jim Edsall<BR>Check out my new website =
at <A=20
=
href=3D"http://jimedsall.com">http://jimedsall.com</A></DIV></DIV><BR><BR=
><BR>--------=20
Original message --------<BR>From: <A=20
=
href=3D"mailto:rita.paul@ns.sympatico.ca">rita.paul@ns.sympatico.ca</A>=20
<BR>Date: 12-21-2014 3:12 PM (GMT-04:00) <BR>To: <A=20
href=3D"mailto:naturens@chebucto.ns.ca">naturens@chebucto.ns.ca</A> =
<BR>Subject:=20
Re: Scope of NatureNS: Re: Long again: Re: Long: Re: [NatureNS] light=20
<BR><BR><BR>
<DIV>=EF=BB=BF <STRONG>December 21, 2014 at 1:37 PM David & =
Alison Webster=20
<dwebster@glinx.com> wrote:</STRONG> <BR>Hi Dave </DIV>
<DIV>I take it your education has been somewhat lacking. </DIV>
<DIV>but I guess government so called scientists don't get out much! =
</DIV>
<DIV>Enjoy the holidays </DIV>
<DIV>Paul </DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE=20
style=3D"POSITION: relative; BORDER-LEFT: blue 1px solid; =
PADDING-LEFT: 10px; MARGIN-LEFT: 0px"=20
type=3D"cite">
<DIV><STRONG>Hi Paul,</STRONG> </DIV>
<DIV><STRONG> My enigma machine is down so the =
thrust of=20
your post is not clear. I have never heard of John Murtagh so you =
must know=20
my nephew who has never heard of him either.</STRONG> </DIV>
<DIV><STRONG> </STRONG> </DIV>
<DIV><STRONG> Corn to ethanol was promoted as a =
carbon=20
neutral fuel and, if produced using manure, elbow grease and ox or =
horse=20
power then perhaps it gets close to that. But when it is produced =
using the=20
intensive inputs of industrial agriculture then the overall system =
generates=20
more carbon emission than use of petrochemicals without =
ethanol. And=20
the subsidized ethanol fuel market resulted in less food corn =
production,=20
higher food prices and hardship for those with a traditional diet =
high in=20
corn.</STRONG> </DIV>
<DIV><STRONG></STRONG> </DIV>
<DIV><STRONG> And I object to the insinuation that =
I=20
selectively support only ideas generated by government employees =
because=20
that is 100% off base. I judge ideas on merit not origin.</STRONG> =
</DIV>
<DIV><STRONG></STRONG> </DIV>
<DIV><STRONG> I do however strongly support the =
value of=20
Government funded science provided it is entirely free of pressure,=20
especially political pressure. That resource in needed to keep =
industry=20
somewhat honest and to act as an advisory source for =
government. A=20
large amount in industrial research in the US is (or has=20
been) actually funded by government to mutual =
advantage.</STRONG>=20
</DIV>
<DIV><STRONG></STRONG> </DIV>
<DIV><STRONG>Yt, Dave Webster, Kentville.</STRONG> </DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE=20
style=3D"BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; =
PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
<DIV=20
style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial; font-size-adjust: none; font-stretch: =
normal"><STRONG>-----=20
Original Message -----</STRONG> </DIV>
<DIV=20
style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial; BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; font-size-adjust: =
none; font-stretch: normal; font-color: black"><STRONG>From:=20
<A=20
=
href=3D"mailto:rita.paul@ns.sympatico.ca">rita.paul@ns.sympatico.ca</A></=
STRONG>=20
</DIV>
<DIV=20
style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial; font-size-adjust: none; font-stretch: =
normal"><STRONG>To:=20
<A=20
=
href=3D"mailto:naturens@chebucto.ns.ca">naturens@chebucto.ns.ca</A></STRO=
NG>=20
</DIV>
<DIV=20
style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial; font-size-adjust: none; font-stretch: =
normal"><STRONG>Sent:=20
Sunday, December 21, 2014 12:09 PM</STRONG> </DIV>
<DIV=20
style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial; font-size-adjust: none; font-stretch: =
normal"><STRONG>Subject:=20
Re: Scope of NatureNS: Re: Long again: Re: Long: Re: [NatureNS]=20
light</STRONG> </DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV><STRONG>Interesting Dave</STRONG> </DIV>
<DIV><STRONG>You say =EF=BB=BF corn to alcohol initiative was a =
disaster!</STRONG>=20
</DIV>
<DIV><STRONG>and then go on to say "But all to often some =
anticipated=20
negative effect is enough to derail a undertaking that on balance =
would be=20
very beneficial."</STRONG> </DIV>
<DIV><STRONG>Seems to me that is what you want to do with the =
ethanol=20
initiative.</STRONG> </DIV>
<DIV><STRONG>Not many folks will recognize John Murtagh - a =
maritimer by=20
choice for a few years.</STRONG> </DIV>
<DIV><STRONG>One of the Maritimes leading scientists - I was lucky =
enough=20
to work for</STRONG> </DIV>
<DIV><STRONG>him before his breakthrough and that's not so long =
ago and=20
now you want</STRONG> </DIV>
<DIV><STRONG>to throw it out? I understand - he didn't work for =
the=20
government!</STRONG> </DIV>
<DIV><STRONG>Enjoy early winter</STRONG> </DIV>
<DIV><STRONG>Paul</STRONG> </DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE=20
style=3D"POSITION: relative; BORDER-LEFT: blue 1px solid; =
PADDING-LEFT: 10px; MARGIN-LEFT: 0px"=20
type=3D"cite"><STRONG>On December 21, 2014 at 10:12 AM David & =
Alison=20
Webster <dwebster@glinx.com> wrote: </STRONG><BR><BR>
<DIV><STRONG>Hi Fred, =20
=20
=20
Dec 21, 2014</STRONG> </DIV>
<DIV><STRONG> Good intentions have a way of =
goings=20
astray; no doubt about that.</STRONG> </DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV><STRONG> Mandated targets for biodiesel=20
e.g. led to rapid expansion of the tropical Palm Oil =
industry with=20
ghastly human and environmental consequences. The corn to =
alcohol=20
initiative in the US is another disaster.</STRONG> </DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV><STRONG> Tinkering with any complex =
system=20
generates a need for rapid feedback and control so unforseen =
adverse=20
consequences can be nipped in the bud. Otherwise an initiative =
will fly=20
like one of Goddard's early rockets; squirm around until =
propulsion and=20
gravity are acting in the same direction. Or in other words =
follow the course of least resistance.</STRONG> </DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV><STRONG> Ideally one would apply =
resistance so=20
action combines maximum positive effects with minimum negative. =
But all=20
to often some anticipated negative effect is enough to derail a=20
undertaking that on balance would be very beneficial.</STRONG> =
</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV><STRONG> Yt, Dave Webster, =
Kentville</STRONG>=20
</DIV>
<DIV><STRONG> </STRONG> </DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV><STRONG> .</STRONG> </DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE=20
style=3D"BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; =
PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
<DIV=20
style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial; font-size-adjust: none; =
font-stretch: normal"><STRONG>-----=20
Original Message -----</STRONG> </DIV>
<DIV=20
style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial; BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; =
font-size-adjust: none; font-stretch: normal; font-color: =
black"><STRONG>From:=20
Fred Schueler</STRONG> =
</DIV>
<DIV=20
style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial; font-size-adjust: none; =
font-stretch: normal"><STRONG>To:=20
<A=20
=
href=3D"mailto:naturens@chebucto.ns.ca">naturens@chebucto.ns.ca</A></STRO=
NG>=20
</DIV>
<DIV=20
style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial; font-size-adjust: none; =
font-stretch: normal"><STRONG>Sent:=20
Saturday, December 20, 2014 9:00 PM</STRONG> </DIV>
<DIV=20
style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial; font-size-adjust: none; =
font-stretch: normal"><STRONG>Subject:=20
Re: Scope of NatureNS: Re: Long again: Re: Long: Re: =
[NatureNS]=20
light</STRONG> </DIV>
<DIV> </DIV><BR>
<DIV class=3Dmoz-cite-prefix><STRONG>On 12/20/2014 6:33 PM, =
David &=20
Alison Webster wrote:</STRONG> </DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE type=3D"cite">
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV><STRONG> Opposition to wind =
generation has=20
often come strangely enough from Naturalists; =
organizations or=20
individuals. This was helped I expect by a famous site in =
California=20
that was set in a raptor migration channel in a mountain =
pass by,=20
what a concidence, a Petrochemical Company.</STRONG>=20
</DIV></BLOCKQUOTE><BR><STRONG>* experience in Ontario has =
been that=20
these "green" energy projects are often put in by ecologically =
insensitive firms, prompting the new provincial motto of =
Ontario=20
"green is black." <A=20
=
href=3D"http://www.saveostranderpoint.org/#sthash.LufTSMYD.dpbs">http://w=
ww.saveostranderpoint.org/#sthash.LufTSMYD.dpbs</A>=20
is a tale of a wind farm in an "important bird area" where the =
Ministry of the Environment joined the "proponent's" appeal of =
a=20
decision that the project posed an unacceptable risk to a SAR, =
and the=20
whole basis of the Ontario Rivers Alliance <A=20
=
href=3D"http://www.ontarioriversalliance.ca/">http://www.ontarioriversall=
iance.ca/</A>=20
was "green is black" mesoscale hydro projects that were to be =
blotted=20
all across the norther part of the province - <A=20
=
href=3D"http://karstaddailypaintings.blogspot.ca/2012/10/precious-wild-ri=
vers-calendar-for-2013.html">http://karstaddailypaintings.blogspot.ca/201=
2/10/precious-wild-rivers-calendar-for-2013.html</A>=20
- see my comments. Another instance of this single-purpose=20
insensitivity is the solar farms that are put in with no =
concern for=20
Species at Risk that might be encouraged to live among the =
panels.=20
</STRONG><BR><BR><STRONG>Just as is the case with massive=20
certified-organic agriculture, if we're going to have green=20
infrastructure it must be green all the way down - which will =
require=20
substantial re-education of the industrial/financial sorts - =
it's not=20
enough that politicians respond to the need to make =
alternative=20
sources of energy useable - these installations must be =
installed with=20
ecological sensitivity to the local sites, and in consultation =
with=20
the local Human population. </STRONG><BR><BR><STRONG>fred.=20
</STRONG><BR><PRE class=3Dmoz-signature><STRONG>--=20
------------------------------------------------------------
Frederick W. Schueler & Aleta Karstad
Daily Paintings - <A =
href=3D"http://karstaddailypaintings.blogspot.com/">http://karstaddailypa=
intings.blogspot.com/</A>
Vulnerable Watersheds - <A =
href=3D"http://vulnerablewaters.blogspot.ca/">http://vulnerablewaters.blo=
gspot.ca/</A>
Mudpuppy Night in Oxford Mills - <A =
href=3D"http://pinicola.ca/mudpup1.htm">http://pinicola.ca/mudpup1.htm</A=
>
RR#2 Bishops Mills, Ontario, Canada K0G 1T0
on the Smiths Falls Limestone Plain 44* 52'N 75* 42'W
(613)258-3107 <bckcdb at istar.ca> <A =
href=3D"http://pinicola.ca/">http://pinicola.ca/</A>
------------------------------------------------------------
</STRONG></PRE>
<P align=3Dleft><STRONG>No virus found in this=20
message.</STRONG><BR><STRONG>Checked by AVG - <A=20
=
href=3D"http://www.avg.com">www.avg.com</A></STRONG><BR><STRONG>Version: =
2015.0.5577 / Virus Database: 4253/8775 - Release Date:=20
12/20/14</STRONG></P></BLOCKQUOTE></BLOCKQUOTE>
<DIV><BR><STRONG> </STRONG> </DIV>
<P align=3Dleft><STRONG>No virus found in this=20
message.</STRONG><BR><STRONG>Checked by AVG - <A=20
=
href=3D"http://www.avg.com">www.avg.com</A></STRONG><BR><STRONG>Version: =
2015.0.5577 / Virus Database: 4253/8778 - Release Date:=20
12/21/14</STRONG></P></BLOCKQUOTE></BLOCKQUOTE>
<DIV><BR><STRONG> </STRONG></DIV><A></A>
<P align=3Dleft color=3D"#000000" avgcert??>No virus found in this=20
message.<BR>Checked by AVG - <A=20
href=3D"http://www.avg.com">www.avg.com</A><BR>Version: 2015.0.5577 / =
Virus=20
Database: 4253/8781 - Release Date: =
12/21/14</P></BLOCKQUOTE></BODY></HTML>
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