next message in archive
no next message in thread
previous message in archive
previous message in thread
Index of Subjects
Index of Subjects --bcaec5171a5978c84f05021ebc08 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Looking at a package found on the web shows it contains Ferric Sodium EDTA. This is actually two compounds working in concert - Ferric Sodium and EDTA. A bit of googling shows that it affects mollusks and possibly *earthworms* if it gets into the soil. But there is conflicting information on the web about effects on vertebrates. I would be more worried about its toxic effects on earthworms and smaller crustaceans than birds. It is not approved for organic farming. So, probably won't hurt birds, might hurt worms. Jury is out on amphibians as far as I can see. Here is an article <http://www.justanswer.com/dog-health/7y9nz-80-lb-pit-bull-ate-snail-slug-p= oison-active-ingredient.html>where an 80lb pitbull ate a 1.5 lb box of the Safer product, an extreme dose. It did have some bad effects and it is not clear if the dog survived. *"not sure how long its been since he ate it but he is having difficulty walking,wont eat, stiffness, short breaths, it was a 1.75 lb box and most of it 95% or more was gone when I got home"* Here is a discussion <http://www.hostalibrary.org/firstlook/RRIronPhosphate.htm> with some concerns. The article, from a Hosta growing website, mostly discusses iron phosphate, but does mention the different Safer product half way down the doc: *"Another "safe" new product hits the market As if the iron phosphate baits weren't enough, the apparently mis-named Safer Brand company has trotted out its "improved" iron chelate slug bait that it calls Dr. T's Nature Products Slug and Snail Killer. This product features 6% (as opposed to 1%) active ingredient, this time Sodium Ferric EDTA. It's ads for the product make such claims as "Safe for use around children, pets, wildlife and edible crops" and the bizarre "It will not harm beneficial insects. In addition, since iron is naturally found in soil, it will not persist in the environment like a synthetic formula." Iron may be naturally found in the soil, but EDTA certainly isn't. It isn't "natural" either by any stretch of a copy writer's imagination. I have no idea what "synthetic formula" they might be referring to - apparently not the synthetic formula called sodium ferric EDTA. Interested in what the National Organic Standards Board thought of this product? Well it received a resounding unanimous "No" vote from them for multiple reasons. "* But is is supposed to be fairly safe for vertebrates with iron-based blood systems: From www.co.thurston.wa.us/health/ehipm/pdf.../*sodium*-*ferric*-EDTA.pdf *"Risk of toxicity to non-target insects is expected to be minimal because sodium ferric EDTA is selectivly toxic to copper-based blood systems found in snails, slugs, and other mollusks and crustaceans (Reference 1). Vertebrate animals (including fish) have an iron-based blood system that is not known to be affected by sodium ferric EDTA (Reference1). Sodium ferric EDTA is toxic to aquatic invertebrates, but use of slug and snail control products should not result in exposure to aquatic invertebrates. Toxicity to insects is not expected except for "land-living crustaceans" like sowbugs, pillbugs, woodlice and any others that have hemocyanin in their system (Reference 1). The hazard of toxicity to non-target wildlife from exposures to sodium ferric EDTA from use of slug and snail control products is rated low."* Also it appears to be non toxic to birds ( article <https://www.google.ca/url?sa=3Dt&rct=3Dj&q=3D&esrc=3Ds&source=3Dweb&cd=3D1= &cad=3Drja&uact=3D8&ved=3D0CB0QFjAA&url=3Dhttp%3A%2F%2Fwww.epa.gov%2Fopp000= 01%2Fchem_search%2Freg_actions%2Fregistration%2Ffs_PC-139114_01-Dec-08.pdf&= ei=3DTl8GVMCvJc6-ggS1sYKwBA&usg=3DAFQjCNGsKEV-YMI3qottUPeSvNf6WQO5Sw&sig2= =3DnqrrPTcW84XT2yvufFlDnQ> ): *Sodium Ferric EDTA is not expected to have adverse effects on non-target organisms or the environment. An acute toxicity test on birds showed little or no toxicity, and waivers were provided and accepted for all other non-target organisms. The waiver rationales that were provided showed little to no toxicity to non-target organisms.Freshwater invertebrate testing is not required. The iron in ferric sodium EDTA would betoxic to Daphnia, since they are crustaceans. Exposure of daphnids and other crustaceans is not likely to occur when label directions are followed, as the end use product is applied directly to soil, and is not intended for use in aquatic environments.* On Tue, Sep 2, 2014 at 8:14 PM, Jim Wolford <jimwolford@eastlink.ca> wrote: > I know nothing about the product, but thrushes are one group of birds tha= t > are known to prey on land snails (and slugs too?). Thrushes have =E2=80= =98anvils=E2=80=99 > in the woods where the shells are broken and extracted from the =E2=80=98= meat=E2=80=99. > Cheers from Jim in Wolfville. > > Begin forwarded message: > > *From: *James Hirtle <jrhbirder@hotmail.com> > *Subject: **[NatureNS] Safer - Slug & Snail Killer and potential effect > to birds* > *Date: *September 2, 2014 at 5:48:22 PM ADT > *To: *Naturens Naturens <naturens@chebucto.ns.ca> > *Reply-To: *naturens@chebucto.ns.ca > > Hi all: > > I've been asked about whether Safer - Slug & Snail Killer is okey to use > in regards to potential affects to birds. I'm not sure what birds would > eat slugs and snails or what other insects might be affected by this item= , > which birds might potentially eat. If anyone has any knowledge about thi= s > product and its effects I would be interested in hearing about this. > Thanks in advance. > > Sincerely, > > James R. Hirtle > Bridgewater > > > --=20 Rick Ballard Dartmouth,Nova Scotia, Canada --bcaec5171a5978c84f05021ebc08 Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable <div dir=3D"ltr"><div class=3D"gmail_default"><font face=3D"georgia, serif"= color=3D"#0000ff">Looking at a package found on the web shows it contains = Ferric Sodium EDTA. This is actually two compounds working in concert - Fer= ric Sodium and EDTA. A bit of googling shows that it affects=C2=A0mollusks= =C2=A0and possibly <i>earthworms</i> if it gets into the soil. But there is= conflicting information on the web about effects on vertebrates. I would b= e more worried about its toxic effects on earthworms and smaller=C2=A0crust= aceans=C2=A0than birds. It is not approved for organic farming. So, probabl= y won't hurt birds, might hurt worms. Jury is out on amphibians as far = as I can see.</font></div> <div class=3D"gmail_default"><font face=3D"georgia, serif" color=3D"#0000ff= "><br></font></div><div class=3D"gmail_default"><font face=3D"georgia, seri= f" color=3D"#0000ff">Here is an <a href=3D"http://www.justanswer.com/dog-he= alth/7y9nz-80-lb-pit-bull-ate-snail-slug-poison-active-ingredient.html">art= icle </a>where an 80lb pitbull ate a 1.5 lb box of the Safer product, an ex= treme dose. It did have some bad effects and it is not clear if the dog sur= vived.=C2=A0</font></div> <font face=3D"georgia, serif"><i>"not sure how long its been since he = ate it but he is having difficulty walking,wont eat, stiffness, short breat= hs, it was a 1.75 lb box and most of it 95% or more was gone when I got hom= e"</i></font><div class=3D"gmail_default"> <font face=3D"georgia, serif"><br></font></div><div class=3D"gmail_default"= ><font face=3D"georgia, serif" color=3D"#0000ff">Here is a=C2=A0<a href=3D"= http://www.hostalibrary.org/firstlook/RRIronPhosphate.htm">discussion</a> w= ith some concerns. The article, from a Hosta growing website, =C2=A0mostly = discusses iron phosphate, but does mention the different Safer product half= way down the doc:</font></div> <font face=3D"georgia, serif"><i>"Another "safe" new product= hits the market<br>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 As if the iron phosphate baits weren'= t enough, the apparently mis-named Safer Brand company has trotted out its = "improved" iron chelate slug bait that it calls Dr. T's Natur= e Products Slug and Snail Killer. This product features 6% (as opposed to 1= %) active ingredient, this time Sodium Ferric EDTA. It's ads for the pr= oduct make such claims as "Safe for use around children, pets, wildlif= e and edible crops" and the bizarre "It will not harm beneficial = insects. In addition, since iron is naturally found in soil, it will not pe= rsist in the environment like a synthetic formula." Iron may be natura= lly found in the soil, but EDTA certainly isn't. It isn't "nat= ural" either by any stretch of a copy writer's imagination. I have= no idea what "synthetic formula" they might be referring to - ap= parently not the synthetic formula called sodium ferric EDTA.=C2=A0 =C2=A0 = Interested in what the National Organic Standards Board thought of this pro= duct? Well it received a resounding unanimous "No" vote from them= for multiple reasons. "</i></font><div class=3D"gmail_default"> <font face=3D"georgia, serif"><br></font></div><div class=3D"gmail_default"= ><font face=3D"georgia, serif" color=3D"#0000ff">But is is supposed to be f= airly safe for vertebrates with iron-based blood systems:</font></div><div = class=3D"gmail_default"> <font face=3D"georgia, serif">From=C2=A0<span style=3D"font-size:13px;color= :rgb(0,102,33);line-height:16px;white-space:nowrap"><a href=3D"http://www.c= o.thurston.wa.us/health/ehipm/pdf.../">www.co.thurston.wa.us/health/ehipm/p= df.../</a></span><b style=3D"font-size:13px;color:rgb(0,102,33);line-height= :16px;white-space:nowrap">sodium</b><span style=3D"font-size:13px;color:rgb= (0,102,33);line-height:16px;white-space:nowrap">-</span><b style=3D"font-si= ze:13px;color:rgb(0,102,33);line-height:16px;white-space:nowrap">ferric</b>= <span style=3D"font-size:13px;color:rgb(0,102,33);line-height:16px;white-sp= ace:nowrap">-EDTA.pdf</span></font></div> <div class=3D"gmail_default"><i><font face=3D"georgia, serif">"Risk of= toxicity to non-target insects is expected to be minimal because <b>sodium= ferric EDTA is selectivly toxic to copper-based blood systems found in sna= ils, slugs, and other mollusks and crustaceans</b> (Reference 1). Vertebrat= e animals (including fish) have an iron-based blood system that is not know= n to be affected by sodium ferric EDTA (Reference1). Sodium ferric EDTA is = toxic to aquatic invertebrates, but use of slug and snail control products = should not result in exposure to aquatic invertebrates. Toxicity to insects= is not expected except for "land-living crustaceans" like sowbug= s, pillbugs, woodlice and any others that have hemocyanin in their system (= Reference 1). The hazard of toxicity to non-target wildlife from exposures = to sodium ferric EDTA from use of slug and snail control products is rated = low."</font></i></div> <div class=3D"gmail_default"><i><font face=3D"georgia, serif"><br></font></= i></div><div class=3D"gmail_default"><font face=3D"georgia, serif" style=3D= "background-color:rgb(255,255,255)" color=3D"#0000ff">Also it appears to be= non toxic to birds ( <a href=3D"https://www.google.ca/url?sa=3Dt&rct= =3Dj&q=3D&esrc=3Ds&source=3Dweb&cd=3D1&cad=3Drja&ua= ct=3D8&ved=3D0CB0QFjAA&url=3Dhttp%3A%2F%2Fwww.epa.gov%2Fopp00001%2F= chem_search%2Freg_actions%2Fregistration%2Ffs_PC-139114_01-Dec-08.pdf&e= i=3DTl8GVMCvJc6-ggS1sYKwBA&usg=3DAFQjCNGsKEV-YMI3qottUPeSvNf6WQO5Sw&= ;sig2=3DnqrrPTcW84XT2yvufFlDnQ">article</a> ):</font></div> <div class=3D"gmail_default"><i><font face=3D"georgia, serif"><div class=3D= "gmail_default">Sodium Ferric EDTA is not expected to have adverse effects = on non-target organisms or=C2=A0<i><div class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"di= splay:inline!important"> the environment. <b>An acute toxicity test on birds showed little or no tox= icity</b>, and waivers=C2=A0</div></i><i><div class=3D"gmail_default" style= =3D"display:inline!important">were provided and accepted for all other non-= target organisms. The waiver rationales that=C2=A0</div> </i><i><div class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"display:inline!important">were= provided showed little to no toxicity to non-target organisms.</div></i></= div><div class=3D"gmail_default">Freshwater invertebrate testing is not req= uired. The iron in ferric sodium EDTA would be<i><div class=3D"gmail_defaul= t" style=3D"display:inline!important"> toxic to Daphnia, since they are crustaceans. Exposure of =C2=A0daphnids an= d other crustaceans=C2=A0</div></i><i><div class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D= "display:inline!important">is not likely to occur when label directions are= followed, as the end use product is applied=C2=A0</div> </i><i><div class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"display:inline!important">dire= ctly to soil, and is not intended for use in aquatic environments.</div></i= ></div></font></i></div></div><div class=3D"gmail_extra"><br><br><div class= =3D"gmail_quote"> On Tue, Sep 2, 2014 at 8:14 PM, Jim Wolford <span dir=3D"ltr"><<a href= =3D"mailto:jimwolford@eastlink.ca" target=3D"_blank">jimwolford@eastlink.ca= </a>></span> wrote:<br><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin= :0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"> <div style=3D"word-wrap:break-word">I know nothing about the product, but t= hrushes are one group of birds that are known to prey on land snails (and s= lugs too?). =C2=A0Thrushes have =E2=80=98anvils=E2=80=99 in the woods where= the shells are broken and extracted from the =E2=80=98meat=E2=80=99. =C2= =A0Cheers from Jim in Wolfville.<br> <div><br><div>Begin forwarded message:</div><br><blockquote type=3D"cite"><= div style=3D"margin-top:0px;margin-right:0px;margin-bottom:0px;margin-left:= 0px"><span style=3D"font-family:'Helvetica';color:rgba(0,0,0,1.0)">= <b>From: </b></span><span style=3D"font-family:'Helvetica'">James H= irtle <<a href=3D"mailto:jrhbirder@hotmail.com" target=3D"_blank">jrhbir= der@hotmail.com</a>><br> </span></div><div style=3D"margin-top:0px;margin-right:0px;margin-bottom:0p= x;margin-left:0px"><span style=3D"font-family:'Helvetica';color:rgb= a(0,0,0,1.0)"><b>Subject: </b></span><span style=3D"font-family:'Helvet= ica'"><b>[NatureNS] Safer - Slug & Snail Killer and potential effec= t to birds</b><br> </span></div><div style=3D"margin-top:0px;margin-right:0px;margin-bottom:0p= x;margin-left:0px"><span style=3D"font-family:'Helvetica';color:rgb= a(0,0,0,1.0)"><b>Date: </b></span><span style=3D"font-family:'Helvetica= '">September 2, 2014 at 5:48:22 PM ADT<br> </span></div><div style=3D"margin-top:0px;margin-right:0px;margin-bottom:0p= x;margin-left:0px"><span style=3D"font-family:'Helvetica';color:rgb= a(0,0,0,1.0)"><b>To: </b></span><span style=3D"font-family:'Helvetica&#= 39;">Naturens Naturens <<a href=3D"mailto:naturens@chebucto.ns.ca" targe= t=3D"_blank">naturens@chebucto.ns.ca</a>><br> </span></div><div style=3D"margin-top:0px;margin-right:0px;margin-bottom:0p= x;margin-left:0px"><span style=3D"font-family:'Helvetica';color:rgb= a(0,0,0,1.0)"><b>Reply-To: </b></span><span style=3D"font-family:'Helve= tica'"><a href=3D"mailto:naturens@chebucto.ns.ca" target=3D"_blank">nat= urens@chebucto.ns.ca</a><br> </span></div><div><div class=3D"h5"><br><div><div style=3D"font-size:12pt;f= ont-family:Calibri;font-style:normal;font-variant:normal;font-weight:normal= ;letter-spacing:normal;line-height:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;= text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px"> <div dir=3D"ltr"><font size=3D"6">=C2=A0Hi all:</font><br>=C2=A0<br><font s= ize=3D"6">I've been asked about whether Safer - Slug & Snail Killer= is okey to use in regards to potential affects to birds.=C2=A0 I'm not= sure what birds would eat slugs and snails or what other insects might be = affected by this item, which birds might potentially eat.=C2=A0 If anyone h= as any knowledge about this product and its effects I would be interested i= n hearing about this.=C2=A0 Thanks in advance.=C2=A0<span>=C2=A0</span></fo= nt><br> <font size=3D"6"></font>=C2=A0<br><font size=3D"6">Sincerely,</font><br><fo= nt size=3D"6"></font>=C2=A0<br><font size=3D"6">James R. Hirtle</font><br><= font size=3D"6">Bridgewater</font></div></div></div></div></div></blockquot= e></div><br></div> </blockquote></div><br><br clear=3D"all"><div><br></div>-- <br><span style= =3D"font-family:georgia,serif">Rick Ballard </span><br style=3D"font-family= :georgia,serif"><span style=3D"font-family:georgia,serif">Dartmouth,Nova Sc= otia, Canada </span><br style=3D"font-family:georgia,serif"> <span style=3D"font-family:georgia,serif"></span> </div> --bcaec5171a5978c84f05021ebc08--
next message in archive
no next message in thread
previous message in archive
previous message in thread
Index of Subjects