[NatureNS] Cougars and Ivory-billed woodpeckers

From: Christopher Majka <c.majka@ns.sympatico.ca>
To: naturens@chebucto.ns.ca
Date: Thu, 28 Jul 2011 10:12:17 -0300
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Hi Andy,

On 28-Jul-11, at 7:35 AM, Andy Moir/Christine Callaghan wrote:

> Chris, good arguments are not made by being patronizing.  You are  
> patronizing me (and many others)  by suggesting I don't know the  
> difference between science and politics.

That's not the case.

> Like many others, I live with the consequences of bad science,  
> turned into political advice and action.   The fact, not opinion,  
> is, that we are seeing lots of intentionally bad science, done by  
> scientists,  used for political goals.

That may be your view; it's not mine. If it's intentionally bad, its  
not science. As to what politicians do, that's a whole other kettle of  
fish. ;->

> If you look at how Fisheries and Environment Minister Sterling  
> Belliveau is justifying the St. Mary's Bay salmon feed lots, he  
> points to scientific information provided by DFO and Dept. of  
> Environment. That's justifying this development in the name of  
> science.

He may well do. But he's not a scientist, he's a politician. He (like  
anyone else) can point to anything he wants to and construct whatever  
case he wants to. That doesn't make it science.

> Your other arguments about the fact that we're challenging it are  
> just silly.  We don't have the funds or expertise to go up against  
> these government departments.

No one suggested you did. What I wrote was, "What it should mean (if  
the public process were a good one) is just what you suggest: that  
other studies should be done to determine the validity of such  
knowledge." If there are problems identified with the state of  
knowledge as it stands, a good public process will identify these and  
ensure that scientific studies are conducted to fill in the gaps or  
ascertain the validity of counter claims that are being made. If they  
are not, that's a political issue - not a scientific one.

> You can play around with words (we call is spinning) however you  
> want. I find your approach  evasive of the core argument and totally  
> unconvincing in the face of the evidence.

You are certainly entitled to your view.

> I sometimes think there was something to be said for some aspects of  
> the cultural revolution, where politicians and academics actually  
> had to live with the consequences of their work and decisions.

The whole world lives with the consequences of political decisions.  
And evermore so now, when the the biggest challenge confronting the  
world - bar none - is climate change. And the largest scientific  
survey ever conducting in history - the results of the  
Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change (IPCC) - are being ignored  
by the politicians that govern our country. We will all live with  
these consequences.

Cheers!

Chris


Christopher Majka
6252 Jubilee Rd., Halifax, Nova Scotia, Canada B3H 2G5
c.majka@ns.sympatico.ca

The long run is a misleading guide to current affairs. In the long run  
we are all dead. - John Maynard Keynes




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<html><body style=3D"word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; =
-webkit-line-break: after-white-space; ">Hi Andy,<div><br><div><div>On =
28-Jul-11, at 7:35 AM, Andy Moir/Christine Callaghan wrote:</div><br =
class=3D"Apple-interchange-newline"><blockquote type=3D"cite"><span =
class=3D"Apple-style-span" style=3D"border-collapse: separate; color: =
rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: 'Times New Roman'; font-style: normal; =
font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; =
line-height: normal; orphans: 2; text-align: auto; text-indent: 0px; =
text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: 2; word-spacing: 0px; =
-webkit-border-horizontal-spacing: 0px; -webkit-border-vertical-spacing: =
0px; -webkit-text-decorations-in-effect: none; -webkit-text-size-adjust: =
auto; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; font-size: medium; "><div =
bgcolor=3D"#ffffff" style=3D"word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: =
space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space; "><div>Chris, good =
arguments are not made by being patronizing.&nbsp; You are patronizing =
me (and many others) &nbsp;by suggesting I don't know the difference =
between science and politics.&nbsp; =
</div></div></span></blockquote><div><br></div><div>That's not the =
case.</div><br><blockquote type=3D"cite"><span class=3D"Apple-style-span" =
style=3D"border-collapse: separate; color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: =
'Times New Roman'; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; =
font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; line-height: normal; =
orphans: 2; text-align: auto; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; =
white-space: normal; widows: 2; word-spacing: 0px; =
-webkit-border-horizontal-spacing: 0px; -webkit-border-vertical-spacing: =
0px; -webkit-text-decorations-in-effect: none; -webkit-text-size-adjust: =
auto; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; font-size: medium; "><div =
bgcolor=3D"#ffffff" style=3D"word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: =
space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space; "><div>Like many others, I =
live with the consequences of bad science, turned into political advice =
and action.&nbsp; &nbsp;The fact, not opinion, is, that we are seeing =
lots of intentionally bad science, done by scientists, &nbsp;used for =
political goals.&nbsp; =
</div></div></span></blockquote><div><br></div><div>That may be your =
view; it's not mine. If it's intentionally bad, its not science. As to =
what politicians do, that's a whole other kettle of fish. =
;-&gt;</div><br><blockquote type=3D"cite"><span class=3D"Apple-style-span"=
 style=3D"border-collapse: separate; color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: =
'Times New Roman'; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; =
font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; line-height: normal; =
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white-space: normal; widows: 2; word-spacing: 0px