[NatureNS] Cougars and Ivory-billed woodpeckers

From: "Gloria Gilbert" <turtlevoice@ns.sympatico.ca>
To: <naturens@chebucto.ns.ca>
References: <CAAwXBYecEjGrrN0MrnDcWWE2v+1v6iCQBQgeKLOEJN3aKzA0Aw@mail.gmail.com> <381F7962F89A4356BC651E6EF81FD653@amd3400sempron>
Date: Wed, 27 Jul 2011 21:54:33 -0300
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what the criteria should be for determining what is the truth.&amp;nbsp
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  Andy has called this situation accurately, clearly and concisely. =
Fishermen know their working environment better than anybody.

  Gloria





  Original Message---=20
  From: Andy Moir/Christine Callaghan=20
  To: naturens@chebucto.ns.ca=20
  Sent: Wednesday, July 27, 2011 9:42 PM
  Subject: Re: [NatureNS] Cougars and Ivory-billed woodpeckers



    I am afraid I don't hold the scientific community in the same high =
esteem that Richard does. In fact, I believe segments of the scientific =
community have a growing credibility problem.=20
     In our efforts on some environmental issues here on the Neck and =
Islands, we have come up against all sorts of scientists who interpret =
"facts" to suit the wishes of their political or business masters. =20
    A recent example came from DFO scientists who told a crowd in =
Shelburne that there is no scientific evidence to show that open net =
salmon farms do damage to the local lobster population.  They made it =
sound as if they had actually studied the issue.  But of course, they =
haven't...they have quite intentionally not studied it, presumably for =
fear of what they might find.  When government scientists make this sort =
of claim, I ask myself, where is the test of a "high degree of proof" =
that Richard refers to in his note. =20
    The people who have studied it, the lobstermen of NB, who have 20 =
years or more experience of seeing their livelihood destroyed by open =
net fish farms, don't have PhD after their names, so their observations =
are dismissed, often by scientists.  In many cases, I'll take local =
knowledge over the political/scientific agenda of those who are paid to =
provide advice that the politicians want to hear.  All too often, the =
science has been tainted to reflect a reality that has more to do with =
creating jobs and making money than accurately or fairly assessing the =
environmental impact of some of these projects.
  So I think the scientific community has a long way to go to clean up =
its act before it can rightly claim any holier than thou attitude about =
who is right, and who is wrong on these issues, or, if fact, what the =
criteria should be for determining what is the truth. =20
  Andy in Freeport


    ----- Original Message -----=20
    From: Richard Stern=20
    To: NatureNS=20
    Sent: Wednesday, July 27, 2011 7:48 PM
    Subject: [NatureNS] Cougars and Ivory-billed woodpeckers


    Hi,

    I'll weigh in on the interesting thread about E.cougars, elephants =
etc., mainly because I enjoy this kind of debate.  Wild cougars (or =
Eskimo curlews, or Coelocanths etc.) may or may not be present in NS, =
and people can believe whatever they want. But I agree with Ulli etc. =
that convincing the naturalist and scientific community would require a =
pretty high degree of proof - preferably independently analysed and =
corroborated photos, videos, DNA etc., and then proof beyond a =
reasonable doubt that any photos aren't faked in some way, and that the =
creature wasn't a zoo or collection escape, like Paul's elephant.=20

    I would urge interested parties, and for that matter all birders and =
naturalists interested in reporting sightings,  to read David Sibley's =
refutation of the "proof" that the Ivory-billed woodpecker still lives =
in Arkansas, for a great example of what to look for and how to go about =
it , and the sort of analysis that should convince skeptics on rare bird =
committees etc.! =
(http://www.sciencemag.org/content/311/5767/1555.1.full), followed by =
John Fitzpatrick's response =
(http://www.sciencemag.org/content/311/5767/1555.2.full). These are 2 =
highly respected well-known birders with multiple books and publications =
to their name, who give apparently convincing evidence to prove opposite =
"facts", neither of which has subsequently been corroborated, although =
apparently Fitzpatrick has backed down somewhat and the Cornell team =
have stopped searching till more definitive evidence is found.

    Keep debating and looking!

    Richard
    --=20
    #################
    Richard Stern,=20
    317 Middle Dyke Rd.
    Port Williams, NS, Canada
    B0P 1T0

    sternrichard@gmail.com
    ###################

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  <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial">Andy has called this situation =
accurately,=20
  clearly and concisely. Fishermen know their working environment better =
than=20
  anybody.</DIV>
  <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial">&nbsp;</DIV>
  <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial">Gloria</DIV>
  <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial">&nbsp;</DIV>
  <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial">&nbsp;</DIV>
  <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial">&nbsp;</DIV>
  <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial">&nbsp;</DIV>
  <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial">&nbsp;</DIV>
  <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial">Original Message--- </DIV>
  <DIV=20
  style=3D"BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; FONT: 10pt arial; font-color: =
black"><B>From:</B>=20
  <A title=3Dslickdog1@gmail.com =
href=3D"mailto:slickdog1@gmail.com">Andy=20
  Moir/Christine Callaghan</A> </DIV>
  <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>To:</B> <A =
title=3Dnaturens@chebucto.ns.ca=20
  href=3D"mailto:naturens@chebucto.ns.ca">naturens@chebucto.ns.ca</A> =
</DIV>
  <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Sent:</B> Wednesday, July 27, 2011 =
9:42=20
  PM</DIV>
  <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Subject:</B> Re: [NatureNS] Cougars =
and=20
  Ivory-billed woodpeckers</DIV>
  <DIV><BR></DIV>
  <DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
  <DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>&nbsp; I am afraid I don't hold the =
scientific=20
  community in the same high esteem that Richard does.&nbsp;In fact, I=20
  believe&nbsp;segments of&nbsp;the scientific community have a growing=20
  credibility problem.&nbsp;</FONT></DIV>
  <DIV><FONT face=3