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what the criteria should be for determining what is the truth.&nbsp This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_000D_01CC4CA7.C52EF4A0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Andy has called this situation accurately, clearly and concisely. = Fishermen know their working environment better than anybody. Gloria Original Message---=20 From: Andy Moir/Christine Callaghan=20 To: naturens@chebucto.ns.ca=20 Sent: Wednesday, July 27, 2011 9:42 PM Subject: Re: [NatureNS] Cougars and Ivory-billed woodpeckers I am afraid I don't hold the scientific community in the same high = esteem that Richard does. In fact, I believe segments of the scientific = community have a growing credibility problem.=20 In our efforts on some environmental issues here on the Neck and = Islands, we have come up against all sorts of scientists who interpret = "facts" to suit the wishes of their political or business masters. =20 A recent example came from DFO scientists who told a crowd in = Shelburne that there is no scientific evidence to show that open net = salmon farms do damage to the local lobster population. They made it = sound as if they had actually studied the issue. But of course, they = haven't...they have quite intentionally not studied it, presumably for = fear of what they might find. When government scientists make this sort = of claim, I ask myself, where is the test of a "high degree of proof" = that Richard refers to in his note. =20 The people who have studied it, the lobstermen of NB, who have 20 = years or more experience of seeing their livelihood destroyed by open = net fish farms, don't have PhD after their names, so their observations = are dismissed, often by scientists. In many cases, I'll take local = knowledge over the political/scientific agenda of those who are paid to = provide advice that the politicians want to hear. All too often, the = science has been tainted to reflect a reality that has more to do with = creating jobs and making money than accurately or fairly assessing the = environmental impact of some of these projects. So I think the scientific community has a long way to go to clean up = its act before it can rightly claim any holier than thou attitude about = who is right, and who is wrong on these issues, or, if fact, what the = criteria should be for determining what is the truth. =20 Andy in Freeport ----- Original Message -----=20 From: Richard Stern=20 To: NatureNS=20 Sent: Wednesday, July 27, 2011 7:48 PM Subject: [NatureNS] Cougars and Ivory-billed woodpeckers Hi, I'll weigh in on the interesting thread about E.cougars, elephants = etc., mainly because I enjoy this kind of debate. Wild cougars (or = Eskimo curlews, or Coelocanths etc.) may or may not be present in NS, = and people can believe whatever they want. But I agree with Ulli etc. = that convincing the naturalist and scientific community would require a = pretty high degree of proof - preferably independently analysed and = corroborated photos, videos, DNA etc., and then proof beyond a = reasonable doubt that any photos aren't faked in some way, and that the = creature wasn't a zoo or collection escape, like Paul's elephant.=20 I would urge interested parties, and for that matter all birders and = naturalists interested in reporting sightings, to read David Sibley's = refutation of the "proof" that the Ivory-billed woodpecker still lives = in Arkansas, for a great example of what to look for and how to go about = it , and the sort of analysis that should convince skeptics on rare bird = committees etc.! = (http://www.sciencemag.org/content/311/5767/1555.1.full), followed by = John Fitzpatrick's response = (http://www.sciencemag.org/content/311/5767/1555.2.full). These are 2 = highly respected well-known birders with multiple books and publications = to their name, who give apparently convincing evidence to prove opposite = "facts", neither of which has subsequently been corroborated, although = apparently Fitzpatrick has backed down somewhat and the Cornell team = have stopped searching till more definitive evidence is found. Keep debating and looking! Richard --=20 ################# Richard Stern,=20 317 Middle Dyke Rd. Port Williams, NS, Canada B0P 1T0 sternrichard@gmail.com ################### ------=_NextPart_000_000D_01CC4CA7.C52EF4A0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable <!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.0 Transitional//EN"> <HTML><HEAD> <META http-equiv=3DContent-Type content=3D"text/html; = charset=3Diso-8859-1"> <META content=3D"MSHTML 6.00.6000.17098" name=3DGENERATOR> <STYLE></STYLE> </HEAD> <BODY bgColor=3D#ffffff> <BLOCKQUOTE dir=3Dltr=20 style=3D"PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; = BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px"> <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial">Andy has called this situation = accurately,=20 clearly and concisely. Fishermen know their working environment better = than=20 anybody.</DIV> <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"> </DIV> <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial">Gloria</DIV> <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"> </DIV> <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"> </DIV> <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"> </DIV> <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"> </DIV> <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"> </DIV> <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial">Original Message--- </DIV> <DIV=20 style=3D"BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; FONT: 10pt arial; font-color: = black"><B>From:</B>=20 <A title=3Dslickdog1@gmail.com = href=3D"mailto:slickdog1@gmail.com">Andy=20 Moir/Christine Callaghan</A> </DIV> <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>To:</B> <A = title=3Dnaturens@chebucto.ns.ca=20 href=3D"mailto:naturens@chebucto.ns.ca">naturens@chebucto.ns.ca</A> = </DIV> <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Sent:</B> Wednesday, July 27, 2011 = 9:42=20 PM</DIV> <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Subject:</B> Re: [NatureNS] Cougars = and=20 Ivory-billed woodpeckers</DIV> <DIV><BR></DIV> <DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2> I am afraid I don't hold the = scientific=20 community in the same high esteem that Richard does. In fact, I=20 believe segments of the scientific community have a growing=20 credibility problem. </FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT face=3