[NatureNS] Dealing with politicians

From: Patrick Kelly <patrick.kelly@dal.ca>
To: naturens@chebucto.ns.ca
Date: Sat, 16 Apr 2011 17:19:25 -0300
References: <4DA7CDCE.6090203@fundymud.com> <569339411E234046AD95EDC6C1C9039F@D58WQPH1> <008F1C7FBD9B467F9722FA270B6DC8B3@home>
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  desirable.&lt;BR&gt;&lt;BR&gt;&amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp; Meanwhil

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Actually a system like the one in place in Germany and New Zealand =20
would likely work very well in Canada. About half fo the seats are =20
done as they are now, so that each riding has a member in the house. =20
The remaining seats are filled by each party based on percentage of =20
votes. As more are more people move into cities, rural ridings are =20
already becoming less and less relevant with the existing system=85

On Apr 15, 2011, at 9:55 PM, Darrell wrote:

> Proportional representation is a socialist dream to fully control =20
> the country side with urban views. Next will be collective farms and =20=

> as they say in the Ukraine... The buds of socialism are when babies =20=

> are suckling on the cold nipples of their dead mothers.    No thanks!
>
> Lets get back to nature.
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: David & Alison Webster
> To: naturens@chebucto.ns.ca
> Sent: Friday, April 15, 2011 7:23 PM
> Subject: Re: [NatureNS] Dealing with politicians
>
> Hi Doug & All,                Apr 15, 2011
>     I will have to jump in here also.
>
>     I think your approach is unsound for three reasons.
>
> 1) Free votes, in which a local MP can vote against party policy, =20
> are as
> scarce as hen's teeth. The elected MP is just a vote token, his =20
> opinion has
> no clout so why should it count during an election ?
>
> 2) And if your local candidate is loyal to party lines why should one
> suppose that the party platform is not written on water ? Remember =20
> Halloween
> 2006 ? As in-- Conservative federal election platform Jan 31, 2006 "A
> Conservative government will....Stop the Liberal attack on retirement
> savings and preserve income trusts by not imposing any new taxes on =20=

> them."
> By Oct 31, 2006 Finance Minister Jim Flaherty had  realized that not
> imposing new taxes on income trusts would be "...a very bad thing for
> Canada." And speaking of trust, that is the key to chosing between =20
> parties;
> who can you trust more than the rest ?
>
> 3)  We have a vote-counting process well suited for two and only two
> parties. With 4.5 parties in the field, the elected party is almost =20=

> certain
> to not have a clear majority and therefore not be well enabled to =20
> reflect
> majority opinion. This limitation can, in theory, be offset to some =20=

> degree
> if two or more opposition parties vote against something but, in =20
> practice,
> the party with the largest war chest can ignore the vote and proceed =20=

> as
> though it never happened.
>
>     Someday, somehow; proportion representation may come into being =20=

> and,
> failing that, the truth may eventually emerge that coalitions are =20
> legal,
> sensible and desirable.
>
>     Meanwhile, when something is as simple as ABC, why make it =20
> complicated ?
>
> Yt, Dave Webster, Kentville


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Patrick Kelly
Director of Computer Facilities
=3D=20
=3D=20
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
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Faculty of Architecture and Planning
Dalhousie University
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=3D=20
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PO Box 1000 Stn Central                5410 Spring Garden Road
Halifax, Nova Scotia B3J 2X4           Halifax, Nova Scotia B3J 2X4
Canada                                 Canada
=3D=20
=3D=20
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Phone:(902) 494-3294    FAX:(902) 423-6672   E-mail:patrick.kelly@dal.ca
=3D=20
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<html><body style=3D"word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; =
-webkit-line-break: after-white-space; ">Actually a system like the one =
in place in Germany and New Zealand would likely work very well in =
Canada. About half fo the seats are done as they are now, so that each =
riding has a member in the house. The remaining seats are filled by each =
party based on percentage of votes. As more are more people move into =
cities, rural ridings are already becoming less and less relevant with =
the existing system=85<div><br><div><div>On Apr 15, 2011, at 9:55 PM, =
Darrell wrote:</div><br class=3D"Apple-interchange-newline"><blockquote =
type=3D"cite"><span class=3D"Apple-style-span" style=3D"border-collapse: =
separate; color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Helvetica; font-style: =
normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: =
normal; line-height: normal; orphans: 2; text-align: auto; text-indent: =
0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: 2; word-spacing: =
0px; -webkit-border-horizontal-spacing: 0px; =
-webkit-border-vertical-spacing: 0px; =
-webkit-text-decorations-in-effect: none; -webkit-text-size-adjust: =
auto; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; font-size: medium; "><div =
bgcolor=3D"#ffffff"><div><em><font size=3D"4">Proportional =
representation is a socialist dream to fully control the country =
side&nbsp;with urban views. Next will be collective farms and as they =
say in the Ukraine... The buds of socialism are when babies are suckling =
on the cold nipples of their dead mothers.&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;<span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span></font></em><em><font =
size=3D"4">No thanks!</font></em></div><div><em><font =
size=3D"4"></font></em>&nbsp;</div><div><em><font size=3D"4">Lets get =
back to nature.</font></em></div><div><em><font =
size=3D"4"></font></em>&nbsp;</div><blockquote style=3D"border-left-color:=
 rgb(0, 0, 0); border-left-width: 2px; border-left-style: solid; =
padding-left: 5px; padding-right: 0px; margin-left: 5px; margin-right: =
0px; "><div style=3D"font: normal normal normal 10pt/normal arial; =
">----- Original Message -----</div><div style=3D"font: normal normal =
normal 10pt/normal arial; background-image: initial; =
background-attachment: initial; background-origin: initial; =
background-clip: initial; background-color: rgb(228, 228, 228); =
background-position: initial initial; background-repeat: initial =
initial; "><b>From:</b><span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span><a =
title=3D"dwebster@glinx.com" href=3D"mailto:dwebster@glinx.com">David =
&amp; Alison Webster</a></div><div style=3D"font: normal normal normal =
10pt/normal arial; "><b>To:</b><span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span><a =
title=3D"naturens@chebucto.ns.ca" =
href=3D"mailto:naturens@chebucto.ns.ca">naturens@chebucto.ns.ca</a></div><=
div style=3D"font: normal normal normal 10pt/normal arial; =
"><b>Sent:</b><span class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>Friday, =
April 15, 2011 7:23 PM</div><div style=3D"font: normal normal normal =
10pt/normal arial; "><b>Subject:</b><span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>Re: [NatureNS] Dealing with =
politicians</div><div><br></div>Hi Doug &amp; =
All,&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbs=
p;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; Apr 15, 2011<br>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; I will have to =
jump in here also.<br><br>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; I think your approach is =
unsound for three reasons.<br><br>1) Free votes, in which a local MP can =
vote against party policy, are as<span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span><br>scarce as hen's teeth. =
The elected MP is just a vote token, his opinion has<span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span><br>no clout so why should =
it count during an election ?<br><br>2) And if your local candidate is =
loyal to party lines why should one<span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span><br>suppose that the party =
platform is not written on water ? Remember Halloween<span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span><br>2006 ? As in-- =
Conservative federal election platform Jan 31, 2006 "A<span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span><br>Conservative government =
will....Stop the Liberal attack on retirement<span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span><br>savings and preserve =
income trusts by not imposing any new taxes on them."<span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span><br>By Oct 31, 2006 Finance =
Minister Jim Flaherty had&nbsp; realized that not<span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span><br>imposing new taxes on =
income trusts would be "...a very bad thing for<span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span><br>Canada." And speaking =
of trust, that is the key to chosing between parties;<span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span><br>who can you trust more =
than the rest ?<br><br>3)&nbsp; We have a vote-counting process well =
suited for two and only two<span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span><br>parties. With 4.5 =
parties in the field, the elected party is almost certain<span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span><br>to not have a clear =
majority and therefore not be well enabled to reflect<span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span><br>majority opinion. This =
limitation can, in theory, be offset to some degree<span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span><br>if two or more =
opposition parties vote against something but, in practice,<span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span><br>the party with the =
largest war chest can ignore the vote and proceed as<span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span><br>though it never =
happened.<br><br>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; Someday, somehow; proportion =
representation may come into being and,<span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span><br>failing that, the truth =
may eventually emerge that coalitions are legal,<span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span><br>sensible and =
desirable.<br><br>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; Meanwhile, when something is as =
simple as ABC, why make it complicated ?<br><br>Yt, Dave Webster, =
Kentville<br></blockquote></div></span></blockquote></div><br><div =
apple-content-edited=3D"true"> <span class=3D"Apple-style-span" =
style=3D"border-collapse: separate; color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: =
Helvetica; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: =
normal; letter-spacing: normal; line-height: normal; orphans: 2; =
text-align: auto; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: =
normal; widows: 2; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-border-horizontal-spacing: =
0px; -webkit-border-vertical-spacing: 0px; =
-webkit-text-decorations-in-effect: none; -webkit-text-size-adjust: =
auto; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; font-size: medium; "><p =
style=3D"margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; =
margin-left: 0px; "><font face=3D"Courier" size=3D"3" style=3D"font: =
normal normal normal 12px/normal Courier; "><br =
class=3D"Apple-interchange-newline">=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D</font></p><p style=3D"margin-top: 0px; =
margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; "><font =
face=3D"Courier" size=3D"3" style=3D"font: normal normal normal =
12px/normal Courier; ">Patrick Kelly</font></p><p style=3D"margin-top: =
0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; "><font =
face=3D"Courier" size=3D"3" style=3D"font: normal normal normal =
12px/normal Courier; ">Director of Computer Facilities</font></p><p =
style=3D"margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; =
margin-left: 0px; "><font face=3D"Courier" size=3D"3" style=3D"font: =
normal normal normal 12px/normal Courier; =
">=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
</font></p><p style=3D"margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; =
margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; "><font face=3D"Courier" size=3D"3" =
style=3D"font: normal normal normal 12px/normal Courier; ">Faculty of =
Architecture and Planning</font></p><p style=3D"margin-top: 0px; =
margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; "><font =
face=3D"Courier" size=3D"3" style=3D"font: normal normal normal =
12px/normal Courier; ">Dalhousie University</font></p><p =
style=3D"margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; =
margin-left: 0px; "><font face=3D"Courier" size=3D"3" style=3D"font: =
normal normal normal 12px/normal Courier; =
">=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
</font></p><p style=3D"margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; =
margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; "><font face=3D"Courier" size=3D"3" =
style=3D"font: normal normal normal 12px/normal Courier; ">PO Box 1000 =
Stn Central<span class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; =
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;<span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span></span>5410 Spring Garden =
Road</font></p><p style=3D"margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; =
margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; "><font face=3D"Courier" size=3D"3" =
style=3D"font: normal normal normal 12px/normal Courier; ">Halifax, Nova =
Scotia B3J 2X4<span class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span><span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;<span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span></span>Halifax, Nova Scotia =
B3J 2X4</font></p><p style=3D"margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; =
margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; "><font face=3D"Courier" size=3D"3" =
style=3D"font: normal normal normal 12px/normal Courier; ">Canada<span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span><span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; =
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; =
&nbsp;<span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span></span>Canada</font></p><p =
style=3D"margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; =
margin-left: 0px; "><font face=3D"Courier" size=3D"3" style=3D"font: =
normal normal normal 12px/normal Courier; =
">=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
</font></p><p style=3D"margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; =
margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; "><font face=3D"Courier" size=3D"3" =
style=3D"font: normal normal normal 12px/normal Courier; ">Phone:(902) =
494-3294<span class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp; &nbsp;<span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span></span>FAX:(902) =
423-6672<span class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span><span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;<span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span></span>E-mail:<a =
href=3D"mailto:patrick.kelly@dal.ca">patrick.kelly@dal.ca</a></font></p><p=
 style=3D"margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; =
margin-left: 0px; "><font face=3D"Courier" size=3D"3" style=3D"font: =
normal normal normal 12px/normal Courier; =
">=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
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</font></p></span> </div><br></div></body></html>=

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