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>> with white rumps, have li
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Thanks Blake, excellent information.
I would say I have have had 3 of the subspecies aswell. I am assuming some greaters just because I have had some commons with noticable size difference. I have had 25 to 50 redpolls in my yard over most of december and have my niger feeder next to my window so get great views. I may try for some pictures next weekend.
I have noticed that there is less pink on the chests now vs the beginning of the winter season but still have a fair number of birds with pink on the chests.
Rob Woods
Georgefield.
----- Original Message ----
From: Roland McCormick <roland.mccormick@ns.sympatico.ca>
To: naturens@chebucto.ns.ca
Sent: Tuesday, January 1, 2008 9:03:21 PM
Subject: Re: [NatureNS] Re: redpoll question
My observations have been the same - very few of the redpoles have pink
breasts - in a flock of a hundred you may find three or four with pink on
their breast, and perhaps one that is a lighter colour.
Roland.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Lois Codling" <loiscodling@hfx.eastlink.ca>
To: <naturens@chebucto.ns.ca>
Sent: Tuesday, January 01, 2008 8:13 PM
Subject: [NatureNS] Re: redpoll question
> Thank you, Blake, for such terrific information re Redpolls. Very helpful
> in trying to sort them out.
>
> We have a question. Why are there so few adult males, at least in the
> flocks we are observing around our house? I would guess there are about
> one in twenty-five that are at all pink-breasted. Are other people
> finding the same proportion? The Sibley site you gave, Blake, mentioned
> that the white feather edges wear away from the fresh fall plumage to
> reveal more pink as the winter progresses, so I guess that is a possible
> answer. Any other suggestions?
>
> We may have had 3 of the 4 subspecies today in our flock of about 100. I
> saw a pale bird high up in the trees, near two other darker ones, but
> never got a closer look. Don saw a large dark one, which may have been a
> Greater Common Redpoll. From now on we'll be watching closely, with
> better information to judge by!
>
> Lois Codling
> L. Sackville
>
> Blake Maybank wrote:
>> At 02:58 PM 01/01/2008, Jane wrote:
>>> I've been trying to see if I could find a hoary among "our" big flock of
>>> common redpolls. I noticed that someone on this list said he looked for
>>> a BIGGER bird. Well, our (old edition) Peterson says the hoary is
>>> SMALLER than the common (4 1/2 -5 1/2 for the hornemanni and 5-5 1/2 for
>>> the flammea)! Pat Mackay looked in her Sibley, and it also said the
>>> hoary was a bit bigger than the common. Our Burrows book also says the
>>> hoary is bigger. Wow. Did Roger Tory Peterson actually make a
>>> mistake?? The illustration in our Burrows shows the side of the hoary's
>>> head (lores and auricular) to be very light. What have you experts
>>> found?
>>
>> This seems an opportune time to forward the following superb redpoll
>> analysis, that first appeared on the Birding ID Frontiers discussion
>> group. It may not make separating the different redpolls any easier,
>> but at least you will now have information to hand. The author is Ron
>> Pittaway.
>>
>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>
>> The Redpoll Challenge: This is a major redpoll winter in southern Canada
>> and the United States. The legendary George North of Hamilton, Ontario,
>> once saw all four North American redpoll subspecies in the same flock on
>> 23 March 1958 near Hamilton (North 1983, Curry 2006). Fifty years later
>> this could be the winter to do it again. On 15 December 2007, Ron and
>> Doug Tozer found a big "snowball" Hornemann's" Hoary Redpoll (nominate
>> hornemanni) on the Minden Christmas Bird Count. This is the rarest
>> redpoll in southern Canada. On 14 December 2007, I saw two "Greater"
>> Common Redpolls (rostrata) at our feeders in Toronto and there have been
>> several other recent reports. With these two High Arctic subspecies and
>> probably record numbers of "Southern" Hoary Redpolls (exilipes) in flocks
>> of "Southern" Common Redpoll (nominate flammea), we have all four North
>> American subspecies in southern Ontario this winter. Below I summarize
>> the basic information needed to understand and identify redpolls with
>> links to photos.
>>
>> Taxonomy: The American Ornithologists' Union (1998) recognizes two
>> species: Common Redpoll (Carduelis flammea) and Hoary Redpoll (C.
>> hornemanni). Each has two subspecies (races) breeding in North America.
>> Discussion about lumping or splitting redpolls has been off the "radar
>> screen" in recent years. The four subspecies are described below.
>>
>> 1. "Southern" Common Redpoll (nominate flammea): This is the commonest of
>> the four subspecies in southern Ontario. It is the standard to which the
>> other three are compared. In most plumages, it is noticeably streaked on
>> the sides, undertail coverts and rump. However, adult males in winter
>> have more contrasting whiter rumps (fewer streaks and often pinkish) than
>> on worn breeding birds. Adult males are pink-breasted. First year males
>> are somewhat darker and often washed with light pink. Adult females
>> usually lack pink (sometimes tinged) and first year females are the
>> darkest and most heavily streaked of the four age/sex classes.
>>
>> 2. "Greater" Common Redpoll (rostrata): This large and dark subspecies
>> breeds on Baffin Island and Greenland. Greater Redpolls are a winter
>> visitor in small numbers to the southern parts of eastern Canada from
>> Ontario to Newfoundland (Godfrey 1986) and to the northeastern United
>> States. Greaters are more frequent than Hoarys in some winters (Pittaway
>> 1992). The Greater is larger (averages 14.0 cm compared to 12.5 cm for
>> flammea) and heavier. Other field marks are the Greater's thicker bill
>> and somewhat darker and browner coloration with conspicuous heavy
>> streaking on the underparts usually extending to the undertail coverts.
>> Adult male Greaters have "red of underparts less extensive and less
>> intense" than flammea (Godfrey 1986). Males lack red on the malar area,
>> which flammea males usually have (Beadle and Rising 2006). Some observers
>> describe Greaters as House Finch-like. See the excellent identification
>> article on Greater Redpoll by Beadle and Henshaw (1996) in Birders
>> Journal 5(1):44-47, illustrated by Beadle. The differences between the
>> two Common Redpoll subspecies are usually obvious when the two are
>> together for comparison (Peterson 1947).
>>
>> 3. "Southern" Hoary Redpoll (exilipes): This subspecies breeds in the Low
>> Arctic and much of its range overlaps that of the "Southern" Common
>> Redpoll (flammea). It is the much commoner Hoary subspecies, and is
>> similar in size to the flammea Common Redpoll. During redpoll flight
>> years, it is usually possible to find a few classic adult male exilipes
>> Hoarys. Compared to the "Southern" Common Redpoll, they are more frosted
>> with white rumps, have lightly streaked flanks and very lightly streaked
>> to pure white undertail coverts. Adult females and especially first year
>> females can be noticeably streaked. Exilipes Hoary is similar in size to
>> flammea Common, but may look slightly larger because of its whiter
>> plumage. Hoarys have shorter, more obtuse (stubby) bills imparting a
>> distinctive "pushed in face" appearance. Many females are identifiable by
>> overall paler coloration and bill shape. Individuals appearing
>> intermediate between exilipes and flammea are best left unidentified.
>>
>> 4. "Hornemann's" Hoary Redpoll (nominate hornemanni): This is the
>> largest, palest and rarest redpoll. Hornemann's breeds in the Canadian
>> High Arctic Islands and Greenland and is a great rarity in southern
>> Ontario and Quebec. Hornemann's is larger (averages 14.0 cm) than
>> "Southern" Hoary (exilipes) which averages 12.5 cm. It is whiter with
>> less streaking on the sides and flanks and has immaculate white undertail
>> coverts. Adult males have less pink than exilipes, some showing only a
>> trace of pink suffusion on the breast. Females and first year birds are
>> recognizable if compared directly to the two small subspecies, flammea
>> and exilipes, by their larger size. See the excellent article on redpoll
>> identification by Czaplak (1995) in Birding 27(6):446-457. His photo of
>> Hornemann's on page 448 is correctly identified in my opinion. Note
>> larger size of the Hornemann's in the photo in American Birds 42(2):239,
>> which is reproduced on Jean's website link below. See also Doug Tozer's
>> photo and Ron Tozer's detailed description of the recent Ontario
>> "Hornemann's" on Jean Iron's website link below. See David Sibley's
>> website link below.
>>
>> A. Why is there so much plumage variation in redpolls? A flock of one
>> subspecies of the Common Redpoll (flammea) will show four plumage types:
>> adult males, adult females, first year males and first year females.
>> Since there are four redpoll subspecies, a large flock potentially could
>> have 16 plumage types, plus considerable individual variation.
>>
>> B. What is the Greenland Redpoll? Historically, the name Greenland has
>> NOT been used in North America to describe the rostrata "Greater" Common
>> Redpoll (Peterson 1947, Todd 1963, Bent 1968, Terres 1991, etc.).
>> However, Greenland Redpoll is the European name for "Greater" Common
>> Redpoll (Newton 1972, Jonsson 1993, etc.). Most North American
>> publications use Greenland Redpoll for "Hornemann's" Hoary Redpoll (Nash
>> 1905, Macoun and Macoun 1909, Taverner 1953, North 1983, etc.). The name
>> Greenland causes confusion. Most of our Hornemann's Hoary Redpolls and
>> Greater Common Redpolls are coming from Canada, not Greenland. To avoid
>> confusion, it is preferable to include the subspecies scientific name
>> after the common name, particularly when first mentioned: (flammea),
>> (rostrata), (hornemanni) and (exilipes).
>>
>> TAKE THE REDPOLL CHALLENGE: This is the first winter in decades to match
>> George North's Ontario record of four redpoll subspecies in one day. Even
>> more amazing, all four were in the same flock. I am not aware that
>> North's record has been matched in southern Canada or the northern United
>> States. However, Roland C. Clement saw all four subspecies on 12 March
>> 1944 at Indian House Lake in northern Quebec (Lat 56 15' 0 N, Long 64 42'
>> 0 W) south of Ungava Bay close to Labrador. Clement in Todd (1963)
>> reported "a feeding flock of mixed migrants that contained ten rostrata,
>> thirty flammea, two hornemanni, and about six exilipes."
>>
>> Three websites with redpoll information and photos.
>> Jean Iron < http://www.jeaniron.ca/2007/Redpolls/index.htm>
>> Tommy Thompson Park Bird Research Station in Toronto <
>> http://www.ttpbrs.ca/>
>> David Sibley < http://sibleyguides.blogspot.com/> Scroll down to Tuesday
>> December 4.
>>
>> Acknowledgements: I thank Michel Gosselin of the Canadian Museum of
>> Nature for information on redpoll taxonomy and identification. Doug Tozer
>> kindly provided his photo of the recent Minden "Hornemann's" Redpoll.
>> Jean Iron and Ron Tozer made many helpful suggestions.
>>
>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>
>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>
>> No virus found in this incoming message.
>> Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.5.516 / Virus Database:
>> 269.17.13/1205 - Release Date: 31/12/2007 3:32 PM
>>
>
>
> --
> No virus found in this incoming message.
> Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.5.516 / Virus Database:
> 269.17.13/1206 - Release Date: 1/1/2008 12:09 PM
>
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<html><head><style type="text/css"><!-- DIV {margin:0px;} --></style></head><body><div style="font-family:times new roman, new york, times, serif;font-size:12pt"><DIV style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt; FONT-FAMILY: times new roman, new york, times, serif">Thanks Blake, excellent information.</DIV>
<DIV style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt; FONT-FAMILY: times new roman, new york, times, serif"> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt; FONT-FAMILY: times new roman, new york, times, serif">I would say I have have had 3 of the subspecies aswell. I am assuming some greaters just because I have had some commons with noticable size difference. I have had 25 to 50 redpolls in my yard over most of december and have my niger feeder next to my window so get great views. I may try for some pictures next weekend.</DIV>
<DIV style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt; FONT-FAMILY: times new roman, new york, times, serif"> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt; FONT-FAMILY: times new roman, new york, times, serif">I have noticed that there is less pink on the chests now vs the beginning of the winter season but still have a fair number of birds with pink on the chests.</DIV>
<DIV style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt; FONT-FAMILY: times new roman, new york, times, serif"> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt; FONT-FAMILY: times new roman, new york, times, serif">Rob Woods</DIV>
<DIV style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt; FONT-FAMILY: times new roman, new york, times, serif">Georgefield.<BR><BR></DIV>
<DIV style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt; FONT-FAMILY: times new roman, new york, times, serif">----- Original Message ----<BR>From: Roland McCormick <roland.mccormick@ns.sympatico.ca><BR>To: naturens@chebucto.ns.ca<BR>Sent: Tuesday, January 1, 2008 9:03:21 PM<BR>Subject: Re: [NatureNS] Re: redpoll question<BR><BR>My observations have been the same - very few of the redpoles have pink <BR>breasts - in a flock of a hundred you may find three or four with pink on <BR>their breast, and perhaps one that is a lighter colour.<BR><BR>Roland.<BR><BR>----- Original Message ----- <BR>From: "Lois Codling" <loiscodling@hfx.eastlink.ca>
To: <naturens@chebucto.ns.ca><BR>Sent: Tuesday, January 01, 2008 8:13 PM<BR>Subject: [NatureNS] Re: redpoll question<BR><BR><BR>> Thank you,
Blake, for such terrific information re Redpolls. Very helpful <BR>> in trying to sort them out.<BR>><BR>> We have a question. Why are there so few adult males, at least in the <BR>> flocks we are observing around our house? I would guess there are about <BR>> one in twenty-five that are at all pink-breasted. Are other people <BR>> finding the same proportion? The Sibley site you gave, Blake, mentioned <BR>> that the white feather edges wear away from the fresh fall plumage to <BR>> reveal more pink as the winter progresses, so I guess that is a possible <BR>> answer. Any other suggestions?<BR>><BR>> We may have had 3 of the 4 subspecies today in our flock of about 100. I <BR>> saw a pale bird high up in the trees, near two other darker ones, but <BR>> never got a closer look. Don saw a large dark one, which may have been a <BR>> Greater Common Redpoll. From
now on we'll be watching closely, with <BR>> better information to judge by!<BR>><BR>> Lois Codling<BR>> L. Sackville<BR>><BR>> Blake Maybank wrote:<BR>>> At 02:58 PM 01/01/2008, Jane wrote:<BR>>>> I've been trying to see if I could find a hoary among "our" big flock of <BR>>>> common redpolls. I noticed that someone on this list said he looked for <BR>>>> a BIGGER bird. Well, our (old edition) Peterson says the hoary is <BR>>>> SMALLER than the common (4 1/2 -5 1/2 for the hornemanni and 5-5 1/2 for <BR>>>> the flammea)! Pat Mackay looked in her Sibley, and it also said the <BR>>>> hoary was a bit bigger than the common. Our Burrows book also says the <BR>>>> hoary is bigger. Wow. Did Roger Tory Peterson actually make a <BR>>>> mistake?? The illustration in our Burrows shows the side of the hoary's <BR>>>>
head (lores and auricular) to be very light. What have you experts <BR>>>> found?<BR>>><BR>>> This seems an opportune time to forward the following superb redpoll <BR>>> analysis, that first appeared on the Birding ID Frontiers discussion <BR>>> group. It may not make separating the different redpolls any easier, <BR>>> but at least you will now have information to hand. The author is Ron <BR>>> Pittaway.<BR>>><BR>>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------<BR>>><BR>>> The Redpoll Challenge: This is a major redpoll winter in southern Canada <BR>>> and the United States. The legendary George North of Hamilton, Ontario, <BR>>> once saw all four North American redpoll subspecies in the same flock on <BR>>> 23 March 1958 near Hamilton (North 1983, Curry 2006). Fifty years later <BR>>> this could be the winter to do
it again. On 15 December 2007, Ron and <BR>>> Doug Tozer found a big "snowball" Hornemann's" Hoary Redpoll (nominate <BR>>> hornemanni) on the Minden Christmas Bird Count. This is the rarest <BR>>> redpoll in southern Canada. On 14 December 2007, I saw two "Greater" <BR>>> Common Redpolls (rostrata) at our feeders in Toronto and there have been <BR>>> several other recent reports. With these two High Arctic subspecies and <BR>>> probably record numbers of "Southern" Hoary Redpolls (exilipes) in flocks <BR>>> of "Southern" Common Redpoll (nominate flammea), we have all four North <BR>>> American subspecies in southern Ontario this winter. Below I summarize <BR>>> the basic information needed to understand and identify redpolls with <BR>>> links to photos.<BR>>><BR>>> Taxonomy: The American Ornithologists' Union (1998) recognizes two <BR>>> species: Common Redpoll (Carduelis
flammea) and Hoary Redpoll (C. <BR>>> hornemanni). Each has two subspecies (races) breeding in North America. <BR>>> Discussion about lumping or splitting redpolls has been off the "radar <BR>>> screen" in recent years. The four subspecies are described below.<BR>>><BR>>> 1. "Southern" Common Redpoll (nominate flammea): This is the commonest of <BR>>> the four subspecies in southern Ontario. It is the standard to which the <BR>>> other three are compared. In most plumages, it is noticeably streaked on <BR>>> the sides, undertail coverts and rump. However, adult males in winter <BR>>> have more contrasting whiter rumps (fewer streaks and often pinkish) than <BR>>> on worn breeding birds. Adult males are pink-breasted. First year males <BR>>> are somewhat darker and often washed with light pink. Adult females <BR>>> usually lack pink (sometimes tinged) and first year females are the
<BR>>> darkest and most heavily streaked of the four age/sex classes.<BR>>><BR>>> 2. "Greater" Common Redpoll (rostrata): This large and dark subspecies <BR>>> breeds on Baffin Island and Greenland. Greater Redpolls are a winter <BR>>> visitor in small numbers to the southern parts of eastern Canada from <BR>>> Ontario to Newfoundland (Godfrey 1986) and to the northeastern United <BR>>> States. Greaters are more frequent than Hoarys in some winters (Pittaway <BR>>> 1992). The Greater is larger (averages 14.0 cm compared to 12.5 cm for <BR>>> flammea) and heavier. Other field marks are the Greater's thicker bill <BR>>> and somewhat darker and browner coloration with conspicuous heavy <BR>>> streaking on the underparts usually extending to the undertail coverts. <BR>>> Adult male Greaters have "red of underparts less extensive and less <BR>>> intense" than flammea (Godfrey
1986). Males lack red on the malar area, <BR>>> which flammea males usually have (Beadle and Rising 2006). Some observers <BR>>> describe Greaters as House Finch-like. See the excellent identification <BR>>> article on Greater Redpoll by Beadle and Henshaw (1996) in Birders <BR>>> Journal 5(1):44-47, illustrated by Beadle. The differences between the <BR>>> two Common Redpoll subspecies are usually obvious when the two are <BR>>> together for comparison (Peterson 1947).<BR>>><BR>>> 3. "Southern" Hoary Redpoll (exilipes): This subspecies breeds in the Low <BR>>> Arctic and much of its range overlaps that of the "Southern" Common <BR>>> Redpoll (flammea). It is the much commoner Hoary subspecies, and is <BR>>> similar in size to the flammea Common Redpoll. During redpoll flight <BR>>> years, it is usually possible to find a few classic adult male exilipes <BR>>> Hoarys. Compared
to the "Southern" Common Redpoll, they are more frosted <BR>>> with white rumps, have lightly streaked flanks and very lightly streaked <BR>>> to pure white undertail coverts. Adult females and especially first year <BR>>> females can be noticeably streaked. Exilipes Hoary is similar in size to <BR>>> flammea Common, but may look slightly larger because of its whiter <BR>>> plumage. Hoarys have shorter, more obtuse (stubby) bills imparting a <BR>>> distinctive "pushed in face" appearance. Many females are identifiable by <BR>>> overall paler coloration and bill shape. Individuals appearing <BR>>> intermediate between exilipes and flammea are best left unidentified.<BR>>><BR>>> 4. "Hornemann's" Hoary Redpoll (nominate hornemanni): This is the <BR>>> largest, palest and rarest redpoll. Hornemann's breeds in the Canadian <BR>>> High Arctic Islands and Greenland and is a great rarity in
southern <BR>>> Ontario and Quebec. Hornemann's is larger (averages 14.0 cm) than <BR>>> "Southern" Hoary (exilipes) which averages 12.5 cm. It is whiter with <BR>>> less streaking on the sides and flanks and has immaculate white undertail <BR>>> coverts. Adult males have less pink than exilipes, some showing only a <BR>>> trace of pink suffusion on the breast. Females and first year birds are <BR>>> recognizable if compared directly to the two small subspecies, flammea <BR>>> and exilipes, by their larger size. See the excellent article on redpoll <BR>>> identification by Czaplak (1995) in Birding 27(6):446-457. His photo of <BR>>> Hornemann's on page 448 is correctly identified in my opinion. Note <BR>>> larger size of the Hornemann's in the photo in American Birds 42(2):239, <BR>>> which is reproduced on Jean's website link below. See also Doug Tozer's <BR>>> photo and Ron
Tozer's detailed description of the recent Ontario <BR>>> "Hornemann's" on Jean Iron's website link below. See David Sibley's <BR>>> website link below.<BR>>><BR>>> A. Why is there so much plumage variation in redpolls? A flock of one <BR>>> subspecies of the Common Redpoll (flammea) will show four plumage types: <BR>>> adult males, adult females, first year males and first year females. <BR>>> Since there are four redpoll subspecies, a large flock potentially could <BR>>> have 16 plumage types, plus considerable individual variation.<BR>>><BR>>> B. What is the Greenland Redpoll? Historically, the name Greenland has <BR>>> NOT been used in North America to describe the rostrata "Greater" Common <BR>>> Redpoll (Peterson 1947, Todd 1963, Bent 1968, Terres 1991, etc.). <BR>>> However, Greenland Redpoll is the European name for "Greater" Common <BR>>> Redpoll (Newton
1972, Jonsson 1993, etc.). Most North American <BR>>> publications use Greenland Redpoll for "Hornemann's" Hoary Redpoll (Nash <BR>>> 1905, Macoun and Macoun 1909, Taverner 1953, North 1983, etc.). The name <BR>>> Greenland causes confusion. Most of our Hornemann's Hoary Redpolls and <BR>>> Greater Common Redpolls are coming from Canada, not Greenland. To avoid <BR>>> confusion, it is preferable to include the subspecies scientific name <BR>>> after the common name, particularly when first mentioned: (flammea), <BR>>> (rostrata), (hornemanni) and (exilipes).<BR>>><BR>>> TAKE THE REDPOLL CHALLENGE: This is the first winter in decades to match <BR>>> George North's Ontario record of four redpoll subspecies in one day. Even <BR>>> more amazing, all four were in the same flock. I am not aware that <BR>>> North's record has been matched in southern Canada or the northern United
<BR>>> States. However, Roland C. Clement saw all four subspecies on 12 March <BR>>> 1944 at Indian House Lake in northern Quebec (Lat 56 15' 0 N, Long 64 42' <BR>>> 0 W) south of Ungava Bay close to Labrador. Clement in Todd (1963) <BR>>> reported "a feeding flock of mixed migrants that contained ten rostrata, <BR>>> thirty flammea, two hornemanni, and about six exilipes."<BR>>><BR>>> Three websites with redpoll information and photos.<BR>>> Jean Iron < http://www.jeaniron.ca/2007/Redpolls/index.htm>
>> Tommy Thompson Park Bird Research Station in Toronto <
>> http://www.ttpbrs.ca/>
>> David Sibley < http://sibleyguides.blogspot.com/> Scroll down to Tuesday <BR>>>
December 4.<BR>>><BR>>> Acknowledgements: I thank Michel Gosselin of the Canadian Museum of <BR>>> Nature for information on redpoll taxonomy and identification. Doug Tozer <BR>>> kindly provided his photo of the recent Minden "Hornemann's" Redpoll. <BR>>> Jean Iron and Ron Tozer made many helpful suggestions.<BR>>><BR>>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------<BR>>><BR>>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------<BR>>><BR>>> No virus found in this incoming message.<BR>>> Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.5.516 / Virus Database: <BR>>> 269.17.13/1205 - Release Date: 31/12/2007 3:32 PM<BR>>><BR>><BR>><BR>> -- <BR>> No virus found in this incoming message.<BR>> Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.5.516 / Virus Database: <BR>> 269.17.13/1206 - Release Date: 1/1/2008 12:09 PM<BR>>
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