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<DIV><FONT fa --Apple-Mail-398-299241294 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; delsp=yes; format=flowed Hi Jim and Ray, The OED is excellent, but its not the only good source for etymology. The Modern World Dictionary (at circa 5,500 pages) is also very good. Chambers Etymological Dictionary says: from the Old English nep, apparently meaning "helpless." I favour the MWD account. Cheers, Chris > The Modern World Dictionary of the English Language (1906) says the > following: > > From the Anglo-saxon nep meaning "scanty", from the verb nip. The > Anglo-saxons said neap-flod and heah-flod (meaning low and high > tides. In Middle-English this became neep. Related to the Icelandic > neppr & hneppr = scanty, and the Danish knap = scanty, narrow, > strait, & neppe = scarcely. On 3-Aug-06, at 2:46 PM, Ray Dempsey wrote: > Jim, > > In terms of the Modern World Dictionary (1906) as quoted by Chris, > the second edition of the OED(Oxford English Dictionary), Vol. X > gives the Scandinavian/Norway/Iceland origin of "neap" for its > English meaning re " the pole or tongue of a cart" which current > usage they attribute mainly to US usage. > > However, in terms of "neap" refering to tides and the sea, it says > this: > > [OE. nep in nepflod, of obscure etym. and meaning, otherwise found > only in Exod. in the translated phrase "without power of > advancing. .. they also say that the Danish "niptid" is probably > from English] > > Some Examples: > neap tide: a tide occurring shortly after the first and third > quarters of the moon, in which the high-water level stands at its > lowest point. > > neap rise: the height between high-water mark at neap tide and > mean low-water mark at spring tide. > > neap season: the time of neap tide. > > dead neap: said of the lowest or stillest state of the tied; i.e., > dead low water > > a ship is neaped: when she wants water and cannot get out of the > harbour, off from the ground, or out of dock. > > > So there you have it! > > Ray Dempsey > Clementsport. > > PS: Experts consider the OED as the largest and most authoritative > dictionary of the English language. It provides an historical > record of the language since 1150 with all the relevant facts > concerning their form, sens-history and etymology. > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Jim Wolford > To: NatureNS > Sent: Thursday, August 03, 2006 11:07 AM > Subject: [NatureNS] origin of the word "neap" re tides?? > > Dusan's note reminds me to ask something: does anyone know where > the word "neap" comes from? I have asked this many times, > including to expert Roy Bishop in Avonport, and nobody seems to > know. I'll bet some know-it-all on this list can come up with an/ > the answer?! > > My 3-volume Webster's Third Int'l Dictionary says the following: > > (a) piece of wood used to hold up the front or the tongue of a wagon; > > (b) "neaped" means left aground by the high water of a spring tide > -- ??? > > Thanks in advance for all attempts, from Jim in Wolfivlle > ---------- > From: Dusan Soudek <soudekd@ns.sympatico.ca> > Reply-To: naturens@chebucto.ns.ca > Date: Wed, 02 Aug 2006 21:40:12 -0300 > To: naturens@chebucto.ns.ca > Subject: Re: [NatureNS] Re: Tides Halifax Harbour > > Hi all, > yes, there can be a huge difference between predicted and actual > tides, particularly in tidal rivers and in shallow seas. For > example, the Shubie is tidal for some 45-49 km from its mouth. The > timing of the so-called tidal bore and the dead high tide depends > not only on the size of the tide (neap vs. spring), but on winds, > atmospheric pressure, and the amount of flow in the river. > This is also true for the St. John River in N.B., where the > tides around Fredericton and in Grand Lake (and elsewhere) are > discernible only during very low-flow times of the year. > Dusan Soudek > > Paul MacDonald wrote: > Hi Blake and All > High tides or low ones for that matter have > variability based on winds, air pressure and so on so > if you were to measure exactly when the highest water > was or the lowest - these time measurements would have > some noise. > Often when out in tidal water you will note the tidal > start to fall and then reverse itself and come up some > more. > The thing is not to get to tied up on exact times. > Have a nice summer > Paul > > > > _._._._._._._._._._._._._._._._._._._._._._._._._._._._._._._._._._._._. _. Christopher Majka - Nova Scotia Museum of Natural History 1747 Summer Street, Halifax, Nova Scotia, Canada B3H 3A6 (902) 424-6435 Email <c.majka@ns.sympatico.ca> _._._._._._._._._._._._._._._._._._._._._._._._._._._._._._._._._._._._. _. --Apple-Mail-398-299241294 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 <HTML><BODY style=3D"word-wrap: break-word; -khtml-nbsp-mode: space; = -khtml-line-break: after-white-space; ">Hi Jim and Ray,<DIV><BR = class=3D"khtml-block-placeholder"></DIV><DIV><SPAN = class=3D"Apple-style-span">The OED is excellent, but its not the only = good source for etymology. The Modern World Dictionary (at circa 5,500 = pages) is also very good. Chambers Etymological Dictionary says: from = the Old English <I>nep</I>, apparently meaning = "helpless."</SPAN></DIV><DIV><BR = class=3D"khtml-block-placeholder"></DIV><DIV>I favour the MWD = account.</DIV><DIV><BR = class=3D"khtml-block-placeholder"></DIV><DIV>Cheers,</DIV><DIV><BR = class=3D"khtml-block-placeholder"></DIV><DIV>Chris</DIV><DIV><BR = class=3D"khtml-block-placeholder"></DIV><DIV><BLOCKQUOTE = type=3D"cite"><DIV>The Modern World Dictionary of the English Language = (1906) says the following:</DIV><DIV><BR></DIV><DIV><SPAN = class=3D"Apple-style-span">=46rom the Anglo-saxon <I>nep</I> meaning = "scanty", from the verb <I>nip</I>. The Anglo-saxons said = <I>neap-flod</I> and <I>heah-flod</I> (meaning low and high tides. In = Middle-English this became <I>neep</I>. Related to the Icelandic = <I>neppr</I> & <I>hneppr</I> =3D scanty, and the Danish <I>knap</I> = =3D scanty, narrow, strait, & <I>neppe</I> =3D = scarcely.=A0</SPAN></DIV></BLOCKQUOTE></DIV><DIV><BR = class=3D"khtml-block-placeholder"></DIV><DIV><BR><DIV><DIV>On 3-Aug-06, = at 2:46 PM, Ray Dempsey wrote:</DIV><BR = class=3D"Apple-interchange-newline"><BLOCKQUOTE type=3D"cite"><SPAN = class=3D"Apple-style-span" style=3D"border-collapse: separate; = border-spacing: 0px 0px; color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Times; = font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: = normal; letter-spacing: normal; line-height: normal; text-align: auto; = -khtml-text-decorations-in-effect: none; text-indent: 0px; = -apple-text-size-adjust: auto; text-transform: none; orphans: 2; = white-space: normal; widows: 2; word-spacing: 0px; "><DIV><FONT = face=3D"Arial" size=3D"2"><SPAN class=3D"Apple-style-span" = style=3D"font-family: Arial; font-size: 10px; = ">Jim,</SPAN></FONT></DIV><DIV><FONT face=3D"Arial" = size=3D"2"></FONT>=A0</DIV><DIV><DIV><FONT face=3D"Arial" size=3D"2"><SPAN= class=3D"Apple-style-span" style=3D"font-family: Arial; font-size: = 10px; ">In terms of the Modern World Dictionary (1906) as quoted by = Chris, the second edition of the OED(Oxford English Dictionary), Vol. = X=A0gives the Scandinavian/Norway/Iceland origin of "neap" for its = English meaning re " the pole or tongue of a cart" which current = usage=A0they=A0attribute mainly to=A0US = usage.</SPAN></FONT></DIV><DIV><FONT face=3D"Arial" = size=3D"2"></FONT>=A0</DIV></DIV><DIV><FONT face=3D"Arial" = size=3D"2"><SPAN class=3D"Apple-style-span" style=3D"font-family: Arial; = font-size: 10px; ">However, in terms of "neap" refering to tides and the = sea, it says this:</SPAN></FONT></DIV><DIV><FONT face=3D"Arial" = size=3D"2"></FONT>=A0</DIV><DIV><FONT face=3D"Arial" size=3D"2"><STRONG = style=3D"font-family: Arial; font-size: 10px; font-weight: bold; "><SPAN = class=3D"Apple-style-span" style=3D"font-family: Arial; font-size: 10px; = font-weight: bold; ">[OE. nep in nepflod, of obscure etym. and meaning, = otherwise found only in Exod. in the=A0translated phrase "without power = of advancing.=A0.. they also say that the Danish "niptid" is probably = from English]</SPAN></STRONG></FONT></DIV><DIV><FONT face=3D"Arial" = size=3D"2"></FONT>=A0</DIV><DIV><FONT face=3D"Arial" size=3D"2"><SPAN = class=3D"Apple-style-span" style=3D"font-family: Arial; font-size: 10px; = ">Some Examples:</SPAN></FONT></DIV><DIV><FONT face=3D"Arial" = size=3D"2"><STRONG style=3D"font-family: Arial; font-size: 10px; = font-weight: bold; "><SPAN class=3D"Apple-style-span" = style=3D"font-family: Arial; font-size: 10px; font-weight: bold; ">neap = tide:</SPAN></STRONG><SPAN class=3D"Apple-style-span" = style=3D"font-family: Arial; font-size: 10px; "> a tide occurring = shortly after the first and third quarters of the moon, in which the = high-water level stands at its lowest = point.</SPAN></FONT></DIV><DIV><FONT face=3D"Arial" = size=3D"2"></FONT>=A0</DIV><DIV><FONT face=3D"Arial" size=3D"2"><STRONG = style=3D"font-family: Arial; font-size: 10px; font-weight: bold; "><SPAN = class=3D"Apple-style-span" style=3D"font-family: Arial; font-size: 10px; = font-weight: bold; ">neap rise:</SPAN></STRONG><SPAN = class=3D"Apple-style-span" style=3D"font-family: Arial; font-size: 10px; = ">=A0 the height between high-water mark at neap tide and mean low-water = mark at spring tide.</SPAN></FONT></DIV><DIV><FONT face=3D"Arial" = size=3D"2"></FONT>=A0</DIV><DIV><FONT face=3D"Arial" size=3D"2"><STRONG = style=3D"font-family: Arial; font-size: 10px; font-weight: bold; "><SPAN = class=3D"Apple-style-span" style=3D"font-family: Arial; font-size: 10px; = font-weight: bold; ">neap season:</SPAN></STRONG><SPAN = class=3D"Apple-style-span" style=3D"font-family: Arial; font-size: 10px; = "> the time of neap tide.=A0</SPAN></FONT></DIV><DIV><FONT face=3D"Arial" = size=3D"2"></FONT>=A0</DIV><DIV><FONT face=3D"Arial" size=3D"2"><STRONG = style=3D"font-family: Arial; font-size: 10px; font-weight: bold; "><SPAN = class=3D"Apple-style-span" style=3D"font-family: Arial; font-size: 10px; = font-weight: bold; ">dead neap</SPAN></STRONG><SPAN = class=3D"Apple-style-span" style=3D"font-family: Arial; font-size: 10px; = ">: said of the lowest or stillest state of the tied; i.e., dead low = water</SPAN></FONT></DIV><DIV><FONT face=3D"Arial" = size=3D"2"></FONT>=A0</DIV><DIV><FONT face=3D"Arial" size=3D"2"><STRONG = style=3D"font-family: Arial; font-size: 10px; font-weight: bold; "><SPAN = class=3D"Apple-style-span" style=3D"font-family: Arial; font-size: 10px; = font-weight: bold; ">a ship is neaped:</SPAN></STRONG><SPAN = class=3D"Apple-style-span" style=3D"font-family: Arial; font-size: 10px; = "> =A0when she wants water and cannot get out of the harbour, off from = the ground, or out of dock.</SPAN></FONT></DIV><DIV><FONT face=3D"Arial" = size=3D"2"></FONT>=A0</DIV><DIV><FONT face=3D"Arial" = size=3D"2"></FONT>=A0</DIV><DIV><FONT face=3D"Arial" size=3D"2"><SPAN = class=3D"Apple-style-span" style=3D"font-family: Arial; font-size: 10px; = ">So there you have it!</SPAN></FONT></DIV><DIV><FONT face=3D"Arial" = size=3D"2"></FONT>=A0</DIV><DIV><FONT face=3D"Arial" size=3D"2"><SPAN = class=3D"Apple-style-span" style=3D"font-family: Arial; font-size: 10px; = ">Ray Dempsey</SPAN></FONT></DIV><DIV><FONT face=3D"Arial" = size=3D"2"><SPAN class=3D"Apple-style-span" style=3D"font-family: Arial; = font-size: 10px; ">Clementsport.</SPAN></FONT></DIV><DIV><FONT = face=3D"Arial" size=3D"2"></FONT>=A0</DIV><DIV><FONT face=3D"Arial" = size=3D"2"><STRONG style=3D"font-family: Arial; font-size: 10px; = font-weight: bold; "><SPAN class=3D"Apple-style-span" = style=3D"font-family: Arial; font-size: 10px; font-weight: bold; = ">PS:</SPAN></STRONG><SPAN class=3D"Apple-style-span" = style=3D"font-family: Arial; font-size: 10px; "> Experts consider the = OED=A0=A0as the largest and most authoritative dictionary of the English = language. It provides an historical record of the=A0language since 1150 = with all the relevant facts concerning their form, sens-history and = etymology.</SPAN></FONT></DIV><DIV><FONT face=3D"Arial" = size=3D"2"></FONT>=A0</DIV><BLOCKQUOTE style=3D"PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; = PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; = MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px"><DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial; font-family: arial; = font-size: 13.3333px; "><SPAN class=3D"Apple-style-span" = style=3D"font-family: arial; font-size: 13.3333px; ">----- Original = Message -----</SPAN></DIV><DIV style=3D"BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; FONT: 10pt = arial; font-color: black; font-family: arial; font-size: 13.3333px; "><B = style=3D"font-family: arial; font-size: 13.3333px; font-weight: bold; = "><SPAN class=3D"Apple-style-span" style=3D"font-family: arial; = font-size: 13.3333px; font-weight: bold; ">From:</SPAN></B><SPAN = class=3D"Apple-style-span" style=3D"font-family: arial; font-size: = 13.3333px; "> </SPAN><A title=3D"jimwolford@eastlink.ca" = href=3D"mailto:jimwolford@eastlink.ca"><SPAN class=3D"Apple-style-span" = style=3D"color: rgb(0, 0, 238); font-family: arial; font-size: = 13.3333px; -khtml-text-decorations-in-effect: underline; ">Jim = Wolford</SPAN></A><SPAN class=3D"Apple-style-span" style=3D"font-family: = arial; font-size: 13.3333px; "></SPAN></DIV><DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt = arial; font-family: arial; font-size: 13.3333px; "><B = style=3D"font-family: arial; font-size: 13.3333px; font-weight: bold; = "><SPAN class=3D"Apple-style-span" style=3D"font-family: arial; = font-size: 13.3333px; font-weight: bold; ">To:</SPAN></B><SPAN = class=3D"Apple-style-span" style=3D"font-family: arial; font-size: = 13.3333px; "> </SPAN><A title=3D"naturens@chebucto.ns.ca" = href=3D"mailto:naturens@chebucto.ns.ca"><SPAN class=3D"Apple-style-span" = style=3D"color: rgb(0, 0, 238); font-family: arial; font-size: = 13.3333px; -khtml-text-decorations-in-effect: underline; = ">NatureNS</SPAN></A><SPAN class=3D"Apple-style-span" = style=3D"font-family: arial; font-size: 13.3333px; "></SPAN></DIV><DIV = style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial; font-family: arial; font-size: 13.3333px; = "><B style=3D"font-family: arial; font-size: 13.3333px; font-weight: = bold; "><SPAN class=3D"Apple-style-span" style=3D"font-family: arial; = font-size: 13.3333px; font-weight: bold; ">Sent:</SPAN></B><SPAN = class=3D"Apple-style-span" style=3D"font-family: arial; font-size: = 13.3333px; "> Thursday, August 03, 2006 11:07 AM</SPAN></DIV><DIV = style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial; font-family: arial; font-size: 13.3333px; = "><B style=3D"font-family: arial; font-size: 13.3333px; font-weight: = bold; "><SPAN class=3D"Apple-style-span" style=3D"font-family: arial; = font-size: 13.3333px; font-weight: bold; ">Subject:</SPAN></B><SPAN = class=3D"Apple-style-span" style=3D"font-family: arial; font-size: = 13.3333px; "> [NatureNS] origin of the word "neap" re = tides??</SPAN></DIV><DIV><BR></DIV>Dusan's note reminds me to ask = something: does anyone know where the word "neap" comes from? =A0I have = asked this many times, including to expert Roy Bishop in Avonport, and = nobody seems to know. =A0I'll bet some know-it-all on this list can come = up with an/the answer?!<BR><BR>My 3-volume Webster's Third Int'l = Dictionary says the following:<BR><BR>(a) piece of wood used to hold up = the front or the tongue of a wagon;<BR><BR>(b) "neaped" means left = aground by the high water of a spring tide -- ???<BR><BR>Thanks in = advance for all attempts, from Jim in Wolfivlle<BR>----------<BR><B = style=3D"font-weight: bold; "><SPAN class=3D"Apple-style-span" = style=3D"font-weight: bold; ">From: </SPAN></B>Dusan Soudek <<A = href=3D"mailto:soudekd@ns.sympatico.ca">soudekd@ns.sympatico.ca</A>><BR= ><B style=3D"font-weight: bold; "><SPAN class=3D"Apple-style-span" = style=3D"font-weight: bold; ">Reply-To: </SPAN></B><A = href=3D"mailto:naturens@chebucto.ns.ca">naturens@chebucto.ns.ca</A><BR><B = style=3D"font-weight: bold; "><SPAN class=3D"Apple-style-span" = style=3D"font-weight: bold; ">Date: </SPAN></B>Wed, 02 Aug 2006 21:40:12 = -0300<BR><B style=3D"font-weight: bold; "><SPAN class=3D"Apple-style-span"= style=3D"font-weight: bold; ">To: = </SPAN></B>naturens@chebucto.ns.ca<BR><B style=3D"font-weight: bold; = "><SPAN class=3D"Apple-style-span" style=3D"font-weight: bold; = ">Subject: </SPAN></B>Re: [NatureNS] Re: Tides Halifax Harbour<BR><BR>Hi = all,<BR>=A0=A0=A0yes, there can be a huge difference between<SPAN = class=3D"Apple-converted-space">=A0</SPAN><I style=3D"font-style: = italic; "><SPAN class=3D"Apple-style-span" style=3D"font-style: italic; = ">predicted </SPAN></I>and<SPAN class=3D"Apple-converted-space">=A0</SPAN>= <I style=3D"font-style: italic; "><SPAN class=3D"Apple-style-span" = style=3D"font-style: italic; ">actual</SPAN></I><SPAN = class=3D"Apple-converted-space">=A0</SPAN>tides, particularly in tidal = rivers and in shallow seas. For example, the Shubie is tidal for some = 45-49 km from its mouth. The timing of the so-called tidal bore and the = dead high tide depends not only on the size of the tide (neap vs. = spring), but on winds, atmospheric pressure, and the amount of flow in = the river.<SPAN class=3D"Apple-converted-space">=A0</SPAN><BR>=A0=A0=A0Thi= s is also true for the St. John River in N.B., where the tides around = Fredericton and in Grand Lake (and elsewhere) are discernible only = during very low-flow times of the year.<BR>=A0=A0=A0Dusan = Soudek<BR><BR>Paul MacDonald wrote:<BR><BLOCKQUOTE>Hi Blake and = All<BR>High tides or low ones for that matter have<BR>variability based = on winds, air pressure and so on so<BR>if you were to measure exactly = when the highest water<BR>was or the lowest - these time measurements = would have<BR>some noise.<BR>Often when out in tidal water you will note = the tidal<BR>start to fall and then reverse itself and come up = some<BR>more.<BR>The thing is not to get to tied up on exact = times.<BR>Have a nice = summer<BR>Paul<BR><BR>=A0<BR></BLOCKQUOTE><BR></BLOCKQUOTE><BR = class=3D"Apple-interchange-newline"></SPAN></BLOCKQUOTE></DIV><BR><DIV> = <P style=3D"margin: 0.0px 0.0px 0.0px 0.0px"><FONT face=3D"Times" = size=3D"3" style=3D"font: 12.0px = Times">_._._._._._._._._._._._._._._._._._._._._._._._._._._._._._._._._._= ._._._.</FONT></P> <P style=3D"margin: 0.0px 0.0px 0.0px 0.0px"><FONT = face=3D"Times" size=3D"3" style=3D"font: 12.0px Times">Christopher Majka = - Nova Scotia Museum of Natural History</FONT></P> <P style=3D"margin: = 0.0px 0.0px 0.0px 0.0px"><FONT face=3D"Times" size=3D"3" style=3D"font: = 12.0px Times">1747 Summer Street, Halifax, Nova Scotia, Canada<SPAN = class=3D"Apple-converted-space">=A0 </SPAN>B3H 3A6</FONT></P> <P = style=3D"margin: 0.0px 0.0px 0.0px 0.0px"><FONT face=3D"Times" size=3D"3" = style=3D"font: 12.0px Times">(902) 424-6435 <SPAN = class=3D"Apple-converted-space">=A0 </SPAN>Email <<A = href=3D"mailto:c.majka@ns.sympatico.ca">c.majka@ns.sympatico.ca</A>></F= ONT></P> <P style=3D"margin: 0.0px 0.0px 0.0px 0.0px"><FONT face=3D"Times"= size=3D"3" style=3D"font: 12.0px = Times">_._._._._._._._._._._._._._._._._._._._._._._._._._._._._._._._._._= ._._._.</FONT></P> </DIV><BR></DIV></BODY></HTML>= --Apple-Mail-398-299241294--
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